Impossible space engine, that apparently works

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Cmdr Wyvern
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Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by Cmdr Wyvern » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:36 pm

http://rt.com/usa/177204-nasa-space-drive-emdrive/

What will they come up with next? 8)
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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by Smivs » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:10 pm

A space-drive that ignores the laws of physics...where have I seen those before? :wink:
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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by Neelix » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:42 pm

.oO(Ye canna change the laws of physics!... If I give her any more she'll blow cap-*Boom*)

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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by Cmdr Wyvern » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:35 pm

Electric thrusters are old hat; ion drives have been known for decades. NASA even launched a deep space probe with an ion engine on it.

BUT, ion drives still need a fuel source for reaction mass. The aforementioned probe has a small tank of xenon gas onboard for fuel. The thrust of an ion engine is very low, for sure not enough for escape velocity. Our probe still had to fly into space on an oldskool chemical launch vehicle.

Shawyer’s engine apparently provides thrust without needing fuel, and that's what's blowing the minds at JPL. They didn't say if it's powerful enough for a launch. I'm guessing it's not much more powerful than an ion engine.
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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by JensAyton » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:10 pm

The one Nasa tested was producing an apparent thrust in the range of tens of micronewtons. It would barely be able to reach escape velocity from a pebble. :-)

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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by mossfoot » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:36 pm

But it would be useful nonetheless for objects already in space.
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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by Wildeblood » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:45 am

All this really seems to be is an experimental demonstration of the position long held by physicists that photons have inertia. Like the old "solar sail" that NASA are always going to build real soon now.

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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by NigelJK » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:25 pm

Ye canna change the laws of physics!
Five of the space agency’s researchers set about to replicate the so-called EmDrive with another one they called the Cannae Drive, after they were convinced to put it to the test

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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by JensAyton » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:21 am

Wildeblood wrote:All this really seems to be is an experimental demonstration of the position long held by physicists that photons have inertia. Like the old "solar sail" that NASA are always going to build real soon now.
No, not really. In the unlikely event that it holds up, it’s violating the principle of conservation of momentum and as such overturning basic mechanics. Solar sails (the first real one was deployed in 2010 by JAXA) redirect the momentum of incoming photons from a different source, resulting in the normal “action and reaction” of classical mechanics.

Thrusting by carefully reflecting radio waves you produced yourself is the space equivalent of sailing in a calm by blowing into the sail while sitting in the boat.

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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by ClymAngus » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:40 am

JensAyton wrote:
Wildeblood wrote:All this really seems to be is an experimental demonstration of the position long held by physicists that photons have inertia. Like the old "solar sail" that NASA are always going to build real soon now.
No, not really. In the unlikely event that it holds up, it’s violating the principle of conservation of momentum and as such overturning basic mechanics. Solar sails (the first real one was deployed in 2010 by JAXA) redirect the momentum of incoming photons from a different source, resulting in the normal “action and reaction” of classical mechanics.

Thrusting by carefully reflecting radio waves you produced yourself is the space equivalent of sailing in a calm by blowing into the sail while sitting in the boat.
Well there is clearly something needing to be explained here. As something is occurring that should not be able to happen in relation to our understanding of the universe. We face one of 2 options, one much less horrific than the other.

1) It's a con.
2) a lot of very clever people who rely on being clever to get their research funding missed a fundamental principle of the universe which makes them all look like a bunch of half whits.

You see the thing is its a catch 22. People DON'T know which. If 1 is true and you go hell for leather after it your career as a serious scientist is over and your evaluating tin foil hats for the rest of your life.

IF (god forbid) the second is true and your hesitant. You could be missing out on getting into the ground floor of the mother of all space payoffs funding wise.

It's not about the science, it's about grabbing the cash and not looking like a dick whilst your reaching for it. No offence.

That said, getting back to the physics. This is calling out Newton for a fist fight... That causes most physicists to automatically loose bowel control.
A wave verses a stream of matter, I always hated those two. They do my head in. I'm not surprised people are throwing their hands in the air pointing at it and shouting "quantum!" at the top of their voices. It seems like the universal get out clause for "weird shit".

I bet you it stops working when you look at it. Put it in a box and look the other way it could probably pop the earth right out of orbit. :D

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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by JazHaz » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:38 pm

It looks as if this could bring about the future of Oolite spaceships with constant thrust that we dream about! :)

Here's another link to the same story, this time on Space.com.

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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by spud42 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:40 pm

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio
Arthur: OK. Leave this to me. I'm British. I know how to queue.
OR i could go with
Arthur Dent: I always said there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe.
or simply
42

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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by Diziet Sma » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:27 pm

spud42 wrote:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio
The Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.
~ J. B. S. Haldane Possible Worlds and Other Papers (1927), p. 286
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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by ClymAngus » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:39 pm

spud42 wrote:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio

Well indeed, a good story is a wonderful thing. We put it down to hope and flights of fancies or (if we are jaded) a con. Then the experiment is replicated. Then again. Suddenly we've gone from flight of fancy, faith, con or publicity stunt to something testable, measurable and repeatable.

At this point this should get DEADLY serious. If NASA is involved in a debunking exercise, then I get the feeling that it has. I do love the way this became political before it became scientific. China ran with a play. Now Nasa is looking like it doesn't have the cards to raise.

If I maybe so bold:

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Power up-diddly-up-up! Fuel is down-diddly-down-down.
Up, down! Flying around.
Defeating the Newton where-ever their found!
Those magnificent men's over-unity machines!

Sing along!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPgS26ZhqZs

Right or wrong, correct or inaccurate. Watching everyone running around like headless chickens is wonderful. People only do good work when something is at stake. :D

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Re: Impossible space engine, that apparently works

Post by Disembodied » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:58 pm

Max Planck wrote:Science advances one funeral at a time.
That said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence ... as claims go, this is a pretty extraordinary one. If it's true, then it might well bring journeys to the planets - Mars, especially - into the eminently practical range. Even with only micronewtons of thrust, constant output does let you reach some serious speeds for travelling in-system.

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