Safety switch for weapons?

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Mauiby de Fug
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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by Mauiby de Fug »

another_commander wrote:
Mauiby de Fug wrote:It doesn't quite seem realistic to me that a weapons system would be installed which the plot had no control over. With lasers or missiles, you can simply not fire them. With turrets, there is no such option.
Yes there is: Release your target lock.
Hah! Believe it or not - that hadn't occurred to me! I tend to rely quite a lot on the ID computer to tell friend from foe and such. Not really what I'm looking for, but it'll do when necessary.

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by Screet »

Mauiby de Fug wrote:Hah! Believe it or not - that hadn't occurred to me! I tend to rely quite a lot on the ID computer to tell friend from foe and such. Not really what I'm looking for, but it'll do when necessary.
Funny. Now you really sound like someone who would like my little mods to trunk :D
- switchable turrets
- switchable MASC
- energy consuming turrets
- scanner with different colors for non-hostile clean ships and non-hostile ships with a bounty on their head

The first I would suggest to add to trunk, the last one could also be done via OXP (although my little code tweak surely is faster but back then none did like it). The other two, I'm not too sure about anyway. Very special and depending upon the players ship to be balanced.

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by Mauiby de Fug »

Screet wrote:
Mauiby de Fug wrote:Hah! Believe it or not - that hadn't occurred to me! I tend to rely quite a lot on the ID computer to tell friend from foe and such. Not really what I'm looking for, but it'll do when necessary.
Funny. Now you really sound like someone who would like my little mods to trunk :D
- switchable turrets
- switchable MASC
- energy consuming turrets
- scanner with different colors for non-hostile clean ships and non-hostile ships with a bounty on their head

The first I would suggest to add to trunk, the last one could also be done via OXP (although my little code tweak surely is faster but back then none did like it). The other two, I'm not too sure about anyway. Very special and depending upon the players ship to be balanced.

Screet
Switchable turrets - definitely! I don't use MASC, and have removed it from various ships, mainly because on my computer it kills the framerate and makes things somewhat unplayable. Energy consuming turrets make sense to me and I'd use them, though a bit of trial and error may be needed to determine what the best energy usage should be... As for the last, it sounds like a good idea on paper, but it might take a bit of getting used to!

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by curtsibling »

another_commander wrote:
Mauiby de Fug wrote:It doesn't quite seem realistic to me that a weapons system would be installed which the plot had no control over. With lasers or missiles, you can simply not fire them. With turrets, there is no such option.
Yes there is: Release your target lock.
Only to have it relock a second later.

Turret toggle is the only viable solution.
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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by another_commander »

curtsibling wrote:
another_commander wrote:
Mauiby de Fug wrote:It doesn't quite seem realistic to me that a weapons system would be installed which the plot had no control over. With lasers or missiles, you can simply not fire them. With turrets, there is no such option.
Yes there is: Release your target lock.
Only to have it relock a second later.
How so? What about "U" (ident deactivation)?

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by curtsibling »

another_commander wrote:How so? What about "U" (ident deactivation)?
Being able to use the target lock enemies is essential in dogfights. Your rationale is that a turreted ship
should have uncontrollable weapons to offset the "uber" power - Where does that make any sense?

Basically I want to use my turrets when I choose to, which is not around Vipers or friendlies...
A 1.6 million credit ship should have control over the armaments. End of debate.

PS
Would you insist a F22 fighter jet is too "uber" so it must have no control over it's cannon?

:)
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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by another_commander »

curtsibling wrote:
another_commander wrote:How so? What about "U" (ident deactivation)?
Being able to use the target lock enemies is essential in dogfights. Your rationale is that a turreted ship
should have uncontrollable weapons to offset the "uber" power - Where does that make any sense?

Basically I want to use my turrets when I choose to, which is not around Vipers or friendlies...
As I said, the turrets are not uncontrollable. If you release target lock, they stop firing. Also, they fire only against the current hostile target, which is quite different from 'uncontrollable'. If you have friendlies nearby and are worried that they may get hit, disable the turrets and try to lure the enemies away from the friendlies. Then re-target.
A 1.6 million credit ship should have control over the armaments. End of debate.
Actually, a 1.6 million credit ship should be doing a lot more, but when it starts interfering with the gameplay, then that's where the line is drawn. In my opinion, turrets are already way too uber as they are, we should not allow them more advantage.
PS
Would you insist a F22 fighter jet is too "uber" so it must have no control over it's cannon?

:)
Depends whether we are discussing within the context of a game or not. I could possibly insist.

Personally, I have no interest in developing turrets any more than what they have already become. Sometimes I feel that giving the player ships ability to use them in the first place was a mistake. Elite is not about turrets and in my opinion they should remain a very basic secondary weapon. They have affected gameplay already enough as it is.

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by Screet »

another_commander wrote:As I said, the turrets are not uncontrollable. If you release target lock, they stop firing. Also, they fire only against the current hostile target, which is quite different from 'uncontrollable'.
I doubt you've ever gave such a ship a serious try, especially out in interstellar space. Otherwise you would know that it's not that easy.

1) The turrets aim badly (although that seems to have improved in the last year - they're much more deadly than they were). It happens easily that a ship flies into the shots fired at someone else.

2) AutoLock then becomes a "no-go" for ships with turrets.

3) I'm not sure where it comes from, but my target is usually set to the missiles fired at me.

Well, I don't have the problem. I've got my own modded trunk...however, it's really easy to add. For someone who knows what he's doing, it would be more difficult to add the changes I made than to write them again. Thus, why not make more people happy?

Screet

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by JensAyton »

Screet wrote:Well, I don't have the problem. I've got my own modded trunk...however, it's really easy to add. For someone who knows what he's doing, it would be more difficult to add the changes I made than to write them again. Thus, why not make more people happy?
Because adding new controls – especially ones that mean nothing in the core game – does not “make more people happy” with zero cost. It adds complexity to a game which already has a lot of controls to learn.

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

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curtsibling wrote:Basically I want to use my turrets when I choose to, which is not around Vipers or friendlies...
A 1.6 million credit ship should have control over the armaments. End of debate.
Your 1.6MCr ship is actually a living entity. The turrets are not part of your armaments, they're the ship's self-defense mechanism. Debate continues...

No, I'm not actually claiming that's how it is. (Except for the living ship part.) I'm just demonstrating that it's extremely easy to come up with plausible ways of explaining why the Caddy's turrets at times fire when you don't want them to.

It so happens that I agree that somewhat more control over turret behaviour would be desirable. But since 1) it's a fairly minor thing 2) the suggestion has been made, and has been recognized by members of the development team 3) I've no programmatical assistance to offer in the matter, I leave well enough alone. If at some future point there's a safety switch implemented, good. Rack up another improvement, free of charge.

Quite frankly, you come across as rather abrupt in your writing. And it would be very easy to construe some of your statements as wanting to impose your view of the ooniverse on the rest of the commoonity. That last bit is bound to get some heckles up, almost regardless of the actual subject at hand. While I'm sure it's all unintentional, it might be worth giving a spare thought.
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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by curtsibling »

another_commander wrote:As I said, the turrets are not uncontrollable. If you release target lock, they stop firing. Also, they fire only against the current hostile target, which is quite different from 'uncontrollable'. If you have friendlies nearby and are worried that they may get hit, disable the turrets and try to lure the enemies away from the friendlies. Then re-target.
Well, it is obvious releasing the lock is the first thing anyone would attempt.

And how do we stop plasma in mid-flight from a salvo that is already fired?

I would prefer to disable the turrets in the following way = Hitting a button that stops them firing.
another_commander wrote:Actually, a 1.6 million credit ship should be doing a lot more, but when it starts interfering with the gameplay, then that's where the line is drawn. In my opinion, turrets are already way too uber as they are, we should not allow them more advantage.
We? Do you mean the "Uber" players that don't want to play the game unless it somehow reflects their "Elite" pretensions?
Or the people who actually want a "fun game" and get rebuffed when asking for the most basic feature as a gun "off" toggle?

Did it occur to you playing with turrets switched off means the player is now relying on pure marksman skills? EG: more challenge?
I cannot understand this rather odd mentality of insisting everyone plays the same "hardcore" way in a single-player game!
another_commander wrote:Personally, I have no interest in developing turrets any more than what they have already become. Sometimes I feel that giving the player ships ability to use them in the first place was a mistake. Elite is not about turrets and in my opinion they should remain a very basic secondary weapon. They have affected gameplay already enough as it is.
Well, sir. Your gameplay, perhaps.

Varied content and fun features are the things that will keep Oolite alive.

Restriction and snooty attitudes will kill it quickly. Not being cheeky, just realistic.
Last edited by curtsibling on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by curtsibling »

Ahruman wrote:
Screet wrote:Well, I don't have the problem. I've got my own modded trunk...however, it's really easy to add. For someone who knows what he's doing, it would be more difficult to add the changes I made than to write them again. Thus, why not make more people happy?
Because adding new controls – especially ones that mean nothing in the core game – does not “make more people happy” with zero cost. It adds complexity to a game which already has a lot of controls to learn.
A "gun off" button does not take much to learn.

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by Thargoid »

In 1.75, the Vortex will probably have turret switchability, by using the new ability to re-add sub-entities, combined with the programmable key thingiedoodah. If I can get it to work then I'll certainly share the code with ClymAngus (and anyone else who wants it) and we can have it anyway...

It's a workaround, but it might just work.

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by Phantom Hoover »

Especially if you add little hatches over the spaces they'd be in. Auto-retracting turrets!
Last edited by Phantom Hoover on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Safety switch for weapons?

Post by DaddyHoggy »

curtsibling wrote:
another_commander wrote:Actually, a 1.6 million credit ship should be doing a lot more, but when it starts interfering with the gameplay, then that's where the line is drawn. In my opinion, turrets are already way too uber as they are, we should not allow them more advantage.
We? Do you mean the "Uber" players that don't want to play the game unless it somehow reflects their "Elite" pretensions?
Or the people who actually want a "fun game" and get rebuffed when asking for the most basic feature as a gun "off" toggle?

Did it occur to you playing with turrets switched off means the player is now relying on pure marksman skills? EG: more challenge?
I cannot understand this rather odd mentality of insisting everyone plays the same "hardcore" way in a single-player game!
another_commander wrote:Personally, I have no interest in developing turrets any more than what they have already become. Sometimes I feel that giving the player ships ability to use them in the first place was a mistake. Elite is not about turrets and in my opinion they should remain a very basic secondary weapon. They have affected gameplay already enough as it is.
Well, sir. Your gameplay, perhaps.

Varied content and fun features are the things that will keep Oolite alive.

Restriction and snooty attitudes will kill it quickly. Not being cheeky, just realistic.
You might want to rein that snooty attitude in yourself a little bit. Trust me - Oolite has had these kind of debates before - and guess what it's still here.

Don't whinge at developers who are trying to stay faithful to the feel of the original Elite and are working on this code for free in their own time because they won't implement a code change for you. If you want it that bad, download the source code, make the hack and release your own version of Oolite.

Feel free to make suggestions - but don't get all uppity if the developers (and a lot of the rest of the community) don't agree with you and immediately introduce your brilliant new idea.
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