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 Post subject: Space elevator
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:55 am 
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Hello everybody,

I'm currently working on the incentives to launch an attack / war in the Diplomacy Oxp. Economy should play a role (war economy increases the GDP; battle destruction lowers GDP).

So I had to think on the economic ties between planetary systems.

It seems to me that:
- either space elevators exist in the Ooniverse, and economic ties may be significant,
- or space elevators do not exist in the Ooniverse, and economic ties are tenuous due to the prohibitive cost of planet-station goods delivery. It might even be that galactic expansion could not happen without space elevators.

What do you think?

Do space elevators exist in the Ooniverse?

And ps: somebody to model a space elevator?


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 Post subject: Re: Space elevator
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:25 am 
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Quote:
- either space elevators exist in the Ooniverse, and economic ties may be significant,
- or space elevators do not exist in the Ooniverse, and economic ties are tenuous due to the prohibitive cost of planet-station goods delivery. It might even be that galactic expansion could not happen without space elevators.
There's a third option: there are no space elevators, but economic ties are still significant, because planet–station deliveries aren't expensive thanks to cheap antigravity. We know that shuttles and transporters travel from planet to station and back without the need for chemical rockets and the expenditure of vast amounts of fuel, and that Adders and Morays are both fitted for planetary descent. Building a space elevator might be seen as prohibitively expensive, for the benefits it might provide - like building a transatlantic bridge. Plus, it would create a point of extreme vulnerability, and potential planetary catastrophe if it ever fell.

You might still get space elevators in some planets - maybe ones that have very large imports/exports of bulk goods, making it economic. Or maybe around certain low-g moons, to facilitate strip-mining?

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Oofiction: Calliope: a Captain Hesperus adventure | Stranglehold: a Captain Hesperus adventure | Local Midnight in the Vacuum Bar | A Farewell to Arms, Legs, etc.: the Blaze O'Glory Story


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 Post subject: Re: Space elevator
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:07 am 
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Quote:
There's a third option: there are no space elevators, but economic ties are still significant, because planet–station deliveries aren't expensive thanks to cheap antigravity. We know that shuttles and transporters travel from planet to station and back without the need for chemical rockets and the expenditure of vast amounts of fuel, and that Adders and Morays are both fitted for planetary descent.
Cheap antigravity. :shock:
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Ok.
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Good idea. Powered externally by quirium. I like it :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Space elevator
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:09 am 
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We know that ships' drives (normal space - not Witchdrive) can run indefinitely without refuelling. If you have that then you can lift payloads into orbit for essentially nothing, and you don't even have to hit orbital velocity to get into space. (explanation on request :) ). As long as you have that then you don't need a space elevator because your cargo hauler can crawl its way up just as well without a cable to pull itself along by.

But we should have a Space Elevators OXZ anyway, because Rule of Cool.

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Sidewinder Precision Pro ||Claymore Mine ||The Russian Creed

All titles also available in paperback.


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 Post subject: Re: Space elevator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:09 pm 
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We know that ships' drives (normal space - not Witchdrive) can run indefinitely without refuelling.
I assumed it was because no gravity + no friction implies eternal travel?
Energy would only be needed to steer.
Quote:
But we should have a Space Elevators OXZ anyway, because Rule of Cool.
8)


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 Post subject: Re: Space elevator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
We know that ships' drives (normal space - not Witchdrive) can run indefinitely without refuelling.
I assumed it was because no gravity + no friction implies eternal travel?
Energy would only be needed to steer.
No, space doesn't work like that - there is gravity as long as you're anywhere near a planet or a star, which heavily restricts how real spacecraft behave, and also, a rocket's fuel is a huge component of its mass and most of a Saturn V's take-off weight was fuel + somewhere to put it. In order to leave Earth orbit and head for the Moon you had to crank it up to 25,000 mph, but you were bleeding off speed every inch of the way up to the Moon (barring the last thousand miles or so where the Moon's gravity finally took over) which is why it took about three days to cover 248,000 miles instead of less than ten hours.

Elsewhere in the solar system, you will keep travelling in a straight line indefinitely - except, as Einstein tells us, it'll be a straight line in curved space. To us mere mortals that looks a lot more like an ellipse, and you won't leave the solar system or even reach a radically different planet without a lot of power input or, more practically for our space probes, a gravity slingshot whereby we can siphon off an insignificant amount of a planet's orbital velocity and give it to the probe. Fun fact: it's easier to reach Pluto than the Sun; that's counterintuitive but perfectly true.

As you can see, physics in the OoVerse works differently. Whatever speed you want to be doing, you need a certain power output, implying that OoSpace isn't frictionless (except, as you can see, for cargo barrels, which bat along at whatever speed they were dropped at). Also, rotational momentum isn't conserved either. From what I remember from about 1985, you had the option in Elite to conserve momentum and rotation... and it was darned hard to fly a ship that way. :lol:

Whatever speed you're doing, your drive is at a certain setting, and you can see the evidence from an external view. But you could fly for ever without running your drive fuel out, for all the game says otherwise, and since your ship doesn't change mass while all this is going on, it's much easier to get a drive-equipped ship (such as an Adder or a Moray) from surface to orbit: just stand the ship on its tail and, as long as you can go up at all in a vertical climb, you can reach space. (The narrator of the Sidewinder series comments on this from time to time.)

And once again, yeah, space elevators. 8)

_________________
"Sidewinder Precision Pro" and other fiction is now available for Amazon Kindle at a bargain price.

Sidewinder Precision Pro ||Claymore Mine ||The Russian Creed

All titles also available in paperback.


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 Post subject: Re: Space elevator
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:02 am 
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Quote:
No, space doesn't work like that - there is gravity as long as you're anywhere near a planet or a star, which heavily restricts how real spacecraft behave, and also, a rocket's fuel is a huge component of its mass and most of a Saturn V's take-off weight was fuel + somewhere to put it. In order to leave Earth orbit and head for the Moon you had to crank it up to 25,000 mph, but you were bleeding off speed every inch of the way up to the Moon (barring the last thousand miles or so where the Moon's gravity finally took over) which is why it took about three days to cover 248,000 miles instead of less than ten hours.

Elsewhere in the solar system, you will keep travelling in a straight line indefinitely - except, as Einstein tells us, it'll be a straight line in curved space. To us mere mortals that looks a lot more like an ellipse, and you won't leave the solar system or even reach a radically different planet without a lot of power input or, more practically for our space probes, a gravity slingshot whereby we can siphon off an insignificant amount of a planet's orbital velocity and give it to the probe. Fun fact: it's easier to reach Pluto than the Sun; that's counterintuitive but perfectly true.
I'm totally ok with all of this :wink:
Quote:
As you can see, physics in the OoVerse works differently. Whatever speed you want to be doing, you need a certain power output, implying that OoSpace isn't frictionless (except, as you can see, for cargo barrels, which bat along at whatever speed they were dropped at). Also, rotational momentum isn't conserved either. From what I remember from about 1985, you had the option in Elite to conserve momentum and rotation... and it was darned hard to fly a ship that way. :lol:

Whatever speed you're doing, your drive is at a certain setting, and you can see the evidence from an external view. But you could fly for ever without running your drive fuel out, for all the game says otherwise, and since your ship doesn't change mass while all this is going on, it's much easier to get a drive-equipped ship (such as an Adder or a Moray) from surface to orbit: just stand the ship on its tail and, as long as you can go up at all in a vertical climb, you can reach space. (The narrator of the Sidewinder series comments on this from time to time.)
Welllll... I like to think that the Ooniverse has the same physical laws as our own, that the fuel is needed to counterbalance the gravity / steer, that the controls are this way because they go through a pilot interface and this way lets gravity-evolved sentient beings pilot high-risk ships, and finally that the exhaust lights we see are an help for other pilots (like our orange car steering lights).

Of course, why would fighting ships exhibit these helpful exhaust lights :? ?
Nothing's perfect.


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