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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:56 am 
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v1.84: when you start from a fresh install and install "addons for beginners" or "ambiences recommended" you wind up having to deal and fail at dealing with resolving missing dependencies.

these are probably easy fixes, but the package manager should not be offering me incomplete packages in the first place. that's why i'm posting it here since a little bit of attention on what the package manager actually offers you could stop new users from getting that load-error penalty screen on startup.

(its not a great bother, i was ignoring it for 2 weeks, but show it to someone else and they freak out).

hope this helps. thanks and hi!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:25 pm 
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New users shouldn't, in my opinion, be dealing with bundled expansions - and welcome aboard.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:33 pm 
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Hi Cody - Thanks for approving my 'download' posts and the kind welcome.

I understand the point you're making about what people should not be doing but I would respectfully disagree with the idea that users need to be restrained by more than a license agreement.

edit to add: seems a technical oversight to me


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:05 pm 
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I think what Cody means here is that what is being offered as "recommended" bundles are not really recommended by anyone other than the person who has put the effort to make the bundle itself. Without being disrespectful to the bundles' creators, I think that the new user experience will be much better if the new users put just a little bit of their time to search the lists of available OXPs and install only what is interesting to them. Why play the game somebody else wants you to play when you can customize it exactly in the way you want to? I have made myself a special distribution of Oolite, which includes the OXPs I like (gfx and sound boost basically) in the root Resources folder of the game and packaged as a single 175MB executable. I have only given this to close friends and the reason is that even if I make this available publicly, it will still not be a representative sample of what Oolite is about.

Regarding the Expansion Pack Manager,I'm afraid it cannot know whether the OXP download locations are valid or not. Given that anyone can upload an OXP on any site they wish, it is the responsibility of the OXP creators to maintain their download locations and, in case of a change of download location or unavailability due to technical reasons, provide alternative points for download or remove the non-functioning OXPs from the Manager's list altogether. The Manager cannot probe each and every single OXP location to test that it is still valid at any given moment. For this same reason, it is probably not a good idea to create OXP bundles of expansion packs that you have not authored yourself. As soon as one goes down, the entire list goes down unless someone updates the dependency list files of the bundle OXP. If it looks like a maintenance nightmare, that's because it is.

So I would recommend you pick what makes the game interesting for you. You may find expansions that catch your attention and enjoy them so much that you may end up wondering how it can be that no one has included them in a "recommended bundle" already. I can guarantee you that there are a lot of little forgotten gems in those seemingly endless Manager lists.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:20 pm 
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Quote:
New users shouldn't, in my opinion, be dealing with bundled expansions
The alternative, having them find what they need in a list of almost 500 OXZs, is no better. A bundle that installs unwanted stuff or a hand-picked OXZ that was tried and forgotten cause very similar issues in the end.

Rather, we should be more careful about what we bundle together. We run into those issues because those bundles pack way too much stuff. As a result, they include OXPs that suffered from bitrot.

BGS, Neon-docklights and Startup Choices are rock-solid and meet the expectations of beginners (better audio/graphics and easier game). I'll even dare to claim that they should be installed by default.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:44 pm 
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I'll even dare to claim that they should be installed by default.
<chortles> No, only RSN should be installed by default.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:48 pm 
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It is perhaps overlooked too often that the Expansion Manager is basicall a tool for OXP developers. Although part of the core game, it is purely a mechanism to allow OXPs to be presented and sourced easily for players, and that the OXPs (the content in other words) is community generated, not a part of the core game.
When it was introduced there was much discussion about quality control and the pros and cons of bundles. The conclusion was that, because of its fan-based content, any real quality control was impossible, and that it should be left to the discretion of OXP developers what should be included, and to the discretion (or lack of it :P ) as to what players download.
This is obviously far from perfect, but is the best that can be done in the circumstances.
By the way, Hi, gt52 :)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:22 pm 
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One reason to install expansions slowly and one at a time is that if you don't like a feature that an expansion introduces its hard to figure out which one is responsible for said issue when you installed 10 or 20 or 250 at once.

For instance the issue you are having with targeting doesn't make much sense to me because I don't have the telescope oxp, so I never experience some of the things you describe. Oolite is great you can do anything you want, you can even start out by downloading every (non conflicting) oxz in the manager as a new player if you want, but if you do and then have issues it may be quite hard for us to offer much help to solve them.

I like neo-docklights and start choices as well, still use them.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:19 pm 
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Quote:
even if I make this available publicly, it will still not be a representative sample of what Oolite is about.
Hey a_c, you say a lot of great things there and i'm onboard with it. I have picked the bits i liked and zipped them up for a neighbor too. Posting those somewhere would be a little bit like .. wait for it .. custom bundles for Dwarf Fortress that are aimed at the new user and sometimes extensively curated and evolved for years after release. I don't think one should shy away from these bundles for ooLite regardless of the state of the (now quoted) 'package manager'.

But look, there been an awesome amount of love and attention put into ooLite since i last looked at it 6 years ago and yet is still is a small newish game that got a little ahead of its own infrastructure. No matter what, a new user will of course press the button and go googly eyed over everything that's theres. And giving the list of available packages a nip and tuck when things are shown to be incompatible or missing .. so that people 'not in the thought-system' can get something that's as smooth as the rest of the performance .. would just look better.

Quote:
we should be more careful about what we bundle together. We run into those issues because those bundles pack way too much stuff. As a result, they include OXPs that suffered from bitrot.
Hi Astrobe, exactly! still.. just pruning things the got rotted and adding exclusions to those that are incompatible would create a bit more smoothness around what you get out of the box. I lack the domain knowledge to pull this off.. but some here have that and the access rights to insure the new users don't get penalized by taking the words on the screen literally. :)
Quote:
It is perhaps overlooked too often that the Expansion Manager is basicall a tool for OXP developers. Although part of the core game, it is purely a mechanism to allow OXPs to be presented and sourced easily for players
Hey Smivs. I see what you did there. Its good in-system expert thinking and i don't want to cause you any pain by saying that 1) 'EM' fails as a developer tool because it can't manage delivering unzipped OXZs into 'AddOns' or do anything _for the developer other than download some files. 2) 'EM' fails as a user tool because user's are encouraged not to use it. That's a lot of rationalization over having to zap a few lines of rotted bits to make the first look .. look as good as your own stuff! ;)

Quote:
its hard to figure out which one is responsible for said issue when you installed 10 or 20 or 250 at once. ... For instance the issue you are having with targeting doesn't make much sense to me because I don't have the telescope oxp, so I never experience some of the things you describe.
THIS. Hey Stormrider. First, yes. absolutely. the incompatibility 'thing' is certainly an elephant in this room. I don't know that the 'EM' can deal with server side lists of known incompatibilities that can override/amend (and fix!) what the authors themselves know/disclose/bother-to-encode.

And yeah, second, my 'hard time to get FoF info on what I'm pointing the nose at' issue might certainly be caused by something of an incompatibility - That thought had happened here as well - which is why I came to the forums to more or less ask if any of you do not see the various functions that select whats shown about whatever is locked as somewhat inbred, and the mechanics a bit convoluted.

The flying and getting info about what one's pointing at - as (my) issue doesn't quite belong here except to underscore that someone like me, who walked away from the landing-mini-game 20 and 6 years ago, would try and wonder about targeting as part of the new user experience as well.

---

Great involvement guys. thanks very much. now if someone would please fix the list and have the 'EM' remove invalid-combos and meta-packages missing dependencies (maybe some messages on the 'reloading' screen) then it could just be a tool to maintain the new-user 'WOW!' time for longer.

between all you there's a lot of really good 'WOW!' here :)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:34 pm 
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1) 'EM' fails as a developer tool because it can't manage delivering unzipped OXZs into 'AddOns' or do anything _for the developer other than download some files.
Just one quick correction here - in fact, it can deliver unzipped OXZs to AddOns. If you select the list expansions option, select an OXZ and press "x", it will unzip its cotents into AddOns, under the folder <OXZName>.off. You only have to change the extension to .oxp and you can use it like any good old oxp. This is also provided in the on-screen instructions.
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:09 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
It is perhaps overlooked too often that the Expansion Manager is basicall a tool for OXP developers. Although part of the core game, it is purely a mechanism to allow OXPs to be presented and sourced easily for players
Hey Smivs. I see what you did there. Its good in-system expert thinking and i don't want to cause you any pain by saying that 1) 'EM' fails as a developer tool because it can't manage delivering unzipped OXZs into 'AddOns' or do anything _for the developer other than download some files. 2) 'EM' fails as a user tool because user's are encouraged not to use it. That's a lot of rationalization over having to zap a few lines of rotted bits to make the first look .. look as good as your own stuff! ;)
No, actually I just meant what I said.
It's a tool, in this case a delivery system. I can either post a link to my OXPs and people download them and unzip them and put them in AddOns, or I can add it to the manager where people can grab it with one click and it gets installed and works automagically. Nothing more, nothing less. Simple as...
What you seem to be wanting/expecting is a complex and sophisticated management system which it is not and is not supposed to be. It is simply a way to allow OXPers to make their work available in a quick and simple way.
And of course it is the Authors who are responsible for what they post there - it is not the responsibility of 'the Game', the Dev team, the EM or anybody/anything else to monitor quality, compatibility issues, or even the worth of what is there. Nor should it be. You either have freedom (even to post rubbish!) or censorship. This community tends to favour freedom.
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