Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Cody »

Mince pies? Ghastly things!
Overall, there is a smell of fried onions!
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Cholmondely »

Cody wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:29 am Mince pies? Ghastly things!
Offensive, then....
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Cholmondely »

Trying to work out a plan of action.

Let's look at lasers.

What should the order of the lasers be?

1) TL first (lowest to highest), and then alphabetic order within the TL?

2) Pulse, then Beam, then Bolt, then Military, then Mining? And alphabetical within those?

3) Alphabetical?

4) Vanilla game lasers followed by all the rest in alphabetical order?

4a) Group lasers from same oxz together?

5) yet another variation on the theme?
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Nite Owl »

For really complex OXZs like Telescope with lots of equipment it might be best to give them their own sub category under either a Generalized Equipment or Advanced Equipment category. This would keep all of the equipment associated with Telescope together in a group on the F3 screen. See my original code and what was done with both the L.M.S.S. and the Tractor Beam. Then again that is just me and my take on such things. To me it is much preferable to have all of the equipment from a complex OXZ grouped together on the F3 screen then spread out among a bunch of other unrelated equipment.

As for equipment like Lasers that would be spread across several OXZs the categories you mentioned would work nicely; Pulse, Beam, Military, etc. The question then becomes how to group them within those categories. Again going back to my original code what was done there was to look at the damage they could inflict (damage = #) and then go from low to high. This also generally follows the Tech Level purchase option with low damage being equal to low Tech Level.
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by hiran »

Cholmondely wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:07 am Trying to work out a plan of action.

Let's look at lasers.

What should the order of the lasers be?

1) TL first (lowest to highest), and then alphabetic order within the TL?

2) Pulse, then Beam, then Bolt, then Military, then Mining? And alphabetical within those?

3) Alphabetical?

4) Vanilla game lasers followed by all the rest in alphabetical order?

4a) Group lasers from same oxz together?

5) yet another variation on the theme?
Within a category I'd go for alhabetical.

When someone tells me to install xyz, to be found in category A/B/C, then I'd find it much faster with alphabetical sorting than anything else.
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by phkb »

I’d probably go with alphabetical. The other option is cost, lowest to highest.
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Redspear »

Late to the party here, my apologies, especially if some of this has been mentioned before...

Two scenarios re equipment and associated bewilderment
Station Shipyard (f3)
Player Status (f5)

The more the latter is propagated, the more the former is reduced. This is important because even if one has included all 500 items in their game then it is often with the intention of equipping a great many of them simultaneously.

Shipyard confusion is more serious than player status confusion. Only the former environment is typically used for decisions - with one caveat: repairs.

Therefore, I suggest a damage report screen (or area) so that f5 only lists functioning equipment. Having an actual damage report the player could also call up actually sounds cool to me as well.

Rather than equipment categorisation as typically imagined, what about shipyard categorisation?
The difference is largely cosmetic but not entirely so.

Engineering (boosters) - EEU, shields, fuel, LCB, injectors
Military Workshop (weapons) - ECM, lasers, missiles
Civilian Court (convenience) - docking computers, ANA, ASC, fuel scoops

That alone could divide 500 into at least half (I'm guessing a relatively large number of items would fall into the military category).

THEN you could have sub categories that might otherwise seem overly specific e.g. lasers, missiles & mines, countermeasures etc. Bewildering in a grand context but much less so within a military one.

E.g.
Engineering

Lave engineers can offer ship services in these areas

Cargo Bay
Energy Banks
Fuel Tank
General Maintenance
Shields
Military Workshop

Zaonce workshop currently provides the following options subject to proper clearance *

Countermeasures
Explosives
Lasers
Targeting


* separate idea but could include combat ranking???
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It adds a little immersion but I don't think it adds time, I think it's more likely to save it. By encoraging the player to focus on one very broad aspect of ship improvement at a time I think we'd actually be helping them.

E.g.
What do you want?

Er... not sure.

Ok, well what would you like to be better?

I'm getting my behind kicked out there whil my laser does jack. My missiles seem to be useless but there's are deadly!

Well, let's head over to our military workshop and see if there's anything affordable shall we?

I know I can't afford lasers and hardheaded are a waste of money on my budget, so what's the point?

There are other options you know. Have you seen what we have available in countermeasures? I think you'll find them a worthwhile investment...
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:12 pm Late to the party here, my apologies, especially if some of this has been mentioned before...

Two scenarios re equipment and associated bewilderment
Station Shipyard (f3)
Player Status (f5)

The more the latter is propagated, the more the former is reduced. This is important because even if one has included all 500 items in their game then it is often with the intention of equipping a great many of them simultaneously.

Shipyard confusion is more serious than player status confusion. Only the former environment is typically used for decisions - with one caveat: repairs.

Therefore, I suggest a damage report screen (or area) so that f5 only lists functioning equipment. Having an actual damage report the player could also call up actually sounds cool to me as well.

Rather than equipment categorisation as typically imagined, what about shipyard categorisation?
The difference is largely cosmetic but not entirely so.

Engineering (boosters) - EEU, shields, fuel, LCB, injectors
Military Workshop (weapons) - ECM, lasers, missiles
Civilian Court (convenience) - docking computers, ANA, ASC, fuel scoops

That alone could divide 500 into at least half (I'm guessing a relatively large number of items would fall into the military category).

THEN you could have sub categories that might otherwise seem overly specific e.g. lasers, missiles & mines, countermeasures etc. Bewildering in a grand context but much less so within a military one.

E.g.
Engineering

Lave engineers can offer ship services in these areas

Cargo Bay
Energy Banks
Fuel Tank
General Maintenance
Shields
Military Workshop

Zaonce workshop currently provides the following options subject to proper clearance *

Countermeasures
Explosives
Lasers
Targeting


* separate idea but could include combat ranking???
Civilian Court

Welcome to Tionisla Court. Let's make your ship better!
Which of the following are you interested in?

Data Libraries
Exploration
Navigation aids
Pets

It adds a little immersion but I don't think it adds time, I think it's more likely to save it. By encouraging the player to focus on one very broad aspect of ship improvement at a time I think we'd actually be helping them.

E.g.
What do you want?

Er... not sure.

Ok, well what would you like to be better?

I'm getting my behind kicked out there while my laser does jack. My missiles seem to be useless but their's are deadly!

Well, let's head over to our military workshop and see if there's anything affordable shall we?

I know I can't afford lasers and hardheaded are a waste of money on my budget, so what's the point?

There are other options you know. Have you seen what we have available in countermeasures? I think you'll find them a worthwhile investment...
I like the idea. I like the idea, the added complexity and the differentiation of shipyards, some stations will just have one, some will have two, some will have all three. Yes. Definitely.

I do think however, that I would rather see it oxp'd first before inclusion in the Vanilla game. And we'll need to do the categorisation process anyway.
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Cholmondely »

So I've had a stab at fuel.

It's not as easy as it looks. There is the equipment key, and then there is the invisible equipment name as it appears on the F3 page which I'm trying to keep in alphabetical order.

See here: https://github.com/Cholmondely-of-Digeb ... -equipment

Code: Select all

Vanilla game fuel gubbins:
	"EQ_FUEL"									= {sort_order = 10000 #1 ;};

OXZ fuel gubbins:
	"EQ_FUEL_ALT1"
	"EQ_FUEL_ALT2"
	"EQ_FUEL_ALT3"
	"EQ_FUEL_ALT4"
	"EQ_FUEL_ALT5"
	"EQ_FUEL_ALT6"
	"EQ_HOLY_FUEL "
	"EQ_IR_FUEL_SAMPLE_MINE"
	"EQ_PIRATE_FUEL" 
	"EQ_LQG_CHARGE "
	"EQ_DUPLEX_FUEL_TANK_REFILL "
	"EQ_1LY_CHARGE "
	"EQ_3LY_CHARGE "
	"EQ_RRS_FUEL"									= {sort_order = 10000 #14? ;};
It took yonks to piece out the fuel F3 page entries, and I have yet to put them in sort order (I still need to check what actually appears on the F3 page).

I'm wondering if it would make more sense to listen to phkb's sage advice and somehow input it all into a Spreadsheet and then I could manually put the different categories in that, and then let that massage them all into sort order?

Is that easily doable, or is this dumb pilot being a twit?
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:44 pm I'm wondering if it would make more sense to listen to phkb's sage advice and somehow input it all into a Spreadsheet and then I could manually put the different categories in that, and then let that massage them all into sort order?
I'd definitely recommend some stock taking of a similar fashion prior to implementation.

For example, I mentioned coutermeasures as a possible category but this might be a bad idea if...
  • There were only one such item (there isn't)
  • There were no core equipment items in this category (there is one at least and it's commonly available)

Regarding such, be aware that words like 'astrogatory' and 'propulsory', although more accurate, are generally less well understood than 'navigation' and 'engines'.

'Engines' might be a vague word in truth but it's association is strong and commonly understood.
'Propulsion' meanwhile also applies to missiles and so might not be quite as specific as you'd hope.
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by phkb »

Here's a starter for you: EquipmentSorting.ods

The linked spreadsheet should be usable in either Excel or LibreOffice Calc. Instructions are on the "Instructions" tab, which I've hopefully made clear enough. The calcs on the SS will automatically calculate a sort order value, and create the plist entry for each item as well. I've also added an "Interval" feature, so that if you ever need to come back and manually adjust a sort order value, there will be space for putting items in between others.

I've done a basic pass through the equipment items and removed any that I recognised as not being ever offered for sale on the F3 screen (eg all the Ship Config items, HUD-related items, that sort of thing). The are undoubtedly others that aren't relevant, but there is no harm in leaving them in the list.

I've also got a plan to display some sub-headings in the list. There will be some caveats, but it should work reasonably well with the current game. Having sub-sub-sections with collapsible sections would require core code changes, so that's out of scope for the moment. (I mean, I did that sort of thing with all the equipment in Ship Config, so it's possible, but it would mean subverting the F3 screen entirely, and things like F3F3 for the Shipyard would need to be changed as well - so, possible, but not easy or pretty).
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Cholmondely »

phkb wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:56 pm Here's a starter for you: EquipmentSorting.ods

The linked spreadsheet should be usable in either Excel or LibreOffice Calc. Instructions are on the "Instructions" tab, which I've hopefully made clear enough. The calcs on the SS will automatically calculate a sort order value, and create the plist entry for each item as well. I've also added an "Interval" feature, so that if you ever need to come back and manually adjust a sort order value, there will be space for putting items in between others.

I've done a basic pass through the equipment items and removed any that I recognised as not being ever offered for sale on the F3 screen (eg all the Ship Config items, HUD-related items, that sort of thing). The are undoubtedly others that aren't relevant, but there is no harm in leaving them in the list.

I've also got a plan to display some sub-headings in the list. There will be some caveats, but it should work reasonably well with the current game. Having sub-sub-sections with collapsible sections would require core code changes, so that's out of scope for the moment. (I mean, I did that sort of thing with all the equipment in Ship Config, so it's possible, but it would mean subverting the F3 screen entirely, and things like F3F3 for the Shipyard would need to be changed as well - so, possible, but not easy or pretty).
Thanks for this! I'll have a look at it and then give it a stab! Hope all is well down under...
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by phkb »

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:59 pm Hope all is well down under...
Well, we did win the cricket...
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Cody »

phkb wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:14 pm Well, we did win the cricket...
Harrumph! Poor team selection, lousy captain, and our domestic red ball competition is a shambles!
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Re: Sorting out the F3 Ship Outfitting screen.

Post by Cholmondely »

So, plugging on with this one, and starting to worry about the lasers.

I feel in my bones that it is best to divide up the list of 70 lasers between pulse/beam/military/mining and throw in bolt and maybe burst...etc.

I've so far found the following subcategories:
Image
Redspear's Laser Combat Reimagined (see his Venn diagramme above)
Redspear's New Lasers adds Bolt & Variscan categories to the above
Norby's Laser Cannons adds 5 varieties of cannon: small, special, military, artillery & big to the cocktail list.

I don't really understand anything much of all this. Especially when looking at Laser Combat Reimagined which has the ColtMaster CM2 Starlaser (Bolt Laser) and New Lasers which features the ColtMaster CM2 'Starlaser' Beam Laser! I feel that the Vimana Beam should really be classified as a military laser, but that is as far as I'm happy to go.

Any suggestions?
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