The Feudal States

Discussion and information relevant to creating special missions, new ships, skins etc.

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Ramirez
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Ramirez »

Hi all! I'm semi-retired from Oolite at the moment (too much RL to deal with) but still enjoying reading feedback on the OXPs I've made over the years.

I think I may have been lazy and not scripted a distinct outcome for when you kill an opponent who's already surrendered. Instead I just re-used the code for when you surrender yourself, which is a bit confusing. Giving the player a larger penalty for this kind of faux pas is a good idea though.

I'd welcome some improvements to the OXP, especially the duelling part as this has always been tricky to get right, both in terms of calculating reasonable variable odds and making the AI a sufficient challenge. I'm not able to work on it myself but I'd be happy for fellow Ooliters to experiment and release improvements if you could just keep me informed via the forum.
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gsagostinho
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by gsagostinho »

Disembodied wrote:The easiest way to make this the desired outcome might be if the player collected their winnings directly from the defeated pilot.
I don't think that would make much sense according to how the system is currently designed (and I like it's current way): basically, it's the Royal Hunting Lodges which organize the duals, and you are explicitly informed that your bet will be held by them during the dual (that is, a neuter part holds the money). So to collect what your opponent invested in the dual, you must come to talk to the neuter organizer. IMO that is not broken and doesn't need improvement. The absolutely only problem I have with the Royal Hunting Lodges at the moment is that it's a money cow, and a very easy one for that!
Ramirez wrote:I'm semi-retired from Oolite at the moment [...] I'm not able to work on it myself but I'd be happy for fellow Ooliters to experiment and release improvements if you could just keep me informed via the forum.
Hi Ramirez, thanks for the reply. I am a newcomer here as I have beet playing Oolite for about a week now (albeit compulsively). I do have some basic programming skills but unfortunately not in Java, and I would still need to study how the OXP and OZP work in Oolite. So I am probably not the right person to try to improve this right now, although I'd be glad to help in what I can.

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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Disembodied »

gsagostinho wrote:
Disembodied wrote:The easiest way to make this the desired outcome might be if the player collected their winnings directly from the defeated pilot.
I don't think that would make much sense according to how the system is currently designed (and I like it's current way): basically, it's the Royal Hunting Lodges which organize the duals, and you are explicitly informed that your bet will be held by them during the dual (that is, a neuter part holds the money). So to collect what your opponent invested in the dual, you must come to talk to the neuter organizer. IMO that is not broken and doesn't need improvement. The absolutely only problem I have with the Royal Hunting Lodges at the moment is that it's a money cow, and a very easy one for that!
That might be an area for improvement, then. There are good reasons not to allow participants in a sporting encounter to bet on the outcome of their own contest! If it were possible to do, the player could put a wager on, and ideally then watch, a duel between two other NPC combatants, and either win or lose money that way - stakes and odds could be restricted to prevent this being a cash cow. Or they could participate in a non-lethal duel themselves, for a prize pot staked by the two combatants and collected by the victor, assuming they didn't kill their opponent.

Occasionally, there might be duels to the death: these would be matters of honour only - perhaps as a result of someone killing someone's kinsman after they had surrendered - and the winner would receive nothing but their life (and additional kudos). But these rare duels à l'outrance would attract high-stakes gambling from spectators, and if the player-as-spectator happened to find one scheduled, they could stand to win (or lose) a lot of cash.

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gsagostinho
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by gsagostinho »

Disembodied wrote:There are good reasons not to allow participants in a sporting encounter to bet on the outcome of their own contest!
But I don't think the intention was to simulate a spacial sports betting centre, but rather a place where two people can bet on a match that they will play against each other (just like people do in bars while playing snooker or billiards). In the case of billiards, usually two parts put the money together before the match and the winner takes it all. In the case of Oolite, the place where the money is being held is in the Royal Hunting Lodges, and this makes sense since if the opponent does not release his signalling flash his ship will be tear to pieces (together with YOUR money) ;)

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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Disembodied »

gsagostinho wrote:But I don't think the intention was to simulate a spacial sports betting centre, but rather a place where two people can bet on a match that they will play against each other (just like people do in bars while playing snooker or billiards).
That's fine, but I don't understand where the odds come from. You'd have to be a very confident snooker player (or a shark) to offer an opponent 2/1 odds, let alone anything higher. If there are odds on offer, then there's normally a bookie or a casino involved, and I don't think it would be usual for them to allow players to bet on themselves.

I'm just suggesting a possible alternative mechanism: players (and NPCs) can compete against each other for a cash prize, where the loser pays the victor (assuming the loser survives - apart from anything else, this gives both combatants an incentive to let their opponent live). Spectators, including the player, can watch these contests, and gamble on the outcome.

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gsagostinho
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by gsagostinho »

Disembodied wrote:That's fine, but I don't understand where the odds come from. You'd have to be a very confident snooker player (or a shark) to offer an opponent 2/1 odds, let alone anything higher. If there are odds on offer, then there's normally a bookie or a casino involved, and I don't think it would be usual for them to allow players to bet on themselves.

I think you are right, but one of the things we have previously discussed here was to lower the odds to a maximum of 2:1.
I'm just suggesting a possible alternative mechanism: players (and NPCs) can compete against each other for a cash prize, where the loser pays the victor (assuming the loser survives - apart from anything else, this gives both combatants an incentive to let their opponent live). Spectators, including the player, can watch these contests, and gamble on the outcome.
That could work very well as well, and sounds like fun!

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Lone_Wolf
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Lone_Wolf »

for those wondering how the odds are calcualted : check feudal-challenge.js .

this.defineChallengerDetails & this.defineChallengerOdds are the key.

The higher maxSpeed , maxEnergy, thrust & missileCapacity for player are, the lower your odds will be.
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Diziet Sma »

gsagostinho wrote:I do have some basic programming skills but unfortunately not in Java
For conciseness, I just wanted to note that Java and Javascript are two distinctly separate languages.. Oolite uses Javascript for OXPs.
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gsagostinho
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by gsagostinho »

Diziet Sma wrote:For conciseness, I just wanted to note that Java and Javascript are two distinctly separate languages.. Oolite uses Javascript for OXPs.
Thanks for the correction!

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spara
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by spara »

Disembodied wrote:...Spectators, including the player, can watch these contests, and gamble on the outcome.
I firmly believe that this sounds more interesting than it would actually be in game. A very cunning AI programming would be needed to make the duels interesting to spectate. It would also be a requirement to watch the fight very close to see the subtle signs of ship statuses.

With NPCs fights are more or less statistics after all.

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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Disembodied »

spara wrote:
Disembodied wrote:...Spectators, including the player, can watch these contests, and gamble on the outcome.
I firmly believe that this sounds more interesting than it would actually be in game. A very cunning AI programming would be needed to make the duels interesting to spectate. It would also be a requirement to watch the fight very close to see the subtle signs of ship statuses.

With NPCs fights are more or less statistics after all.
Yes, you're probably right - watching a game play against itself is seldom a gripping spectacle, and there would need to be all kinds of fancy tricks played with cameras, etc. It could be reduced to a set of dicerolls, some simple animation maybe and a result displayed, effectively adding a mini-casino to the Hunting Lodges.

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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Imaginos »

Lone_Wolf wrote:for those wondering how the odds are calcualted : check feudal-challenge.js .

this.defineChallengerDetails & this.defineChallengerOdds are the key.

The higher maxSpeed , maxEnergy, thrust & missileCapacity for player are, the lower your odds will be.
I thought that missiles were banned during these challenges.

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Ramirez
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Ramirez »

They are banned - however I may have used missile capacity as an additional handy stat to judge a ship's general strength. Previously I tried using pitch/roll figures and any data I could get my hands on via script.

I'd say the main goal of the odds generator was 1) to keep the odds at at a reasonable level (although this sometimes fails) and 2) to keep things fairly varied so it 'looks' like a calculation is being made each time, making each duel feel individual. I thought it would be a bit boring if the amount of money available was always too similar.

An alternative casino-style approach where the player's more of a spectator isn't necessarily bad idea. It just wasn't an aim for this particular OXP.
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Imaginos
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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Imaginos »

Thanks for explaining that Ramirez.

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Re: The Feudal States

Post by Scrag »

Are there any tips on how to protect convoys? If I lose even one of three, I get an earful.

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