The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's bit.

Discussion and information relevant to creating special missions, new ships, skins etc.

Moderators: winston, another_commander

User avatar
Commander McLane
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:08 am
Location: a Hacker Outpost in a moderately remote area
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Commander McLane » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:12 pm

Paradox wrote:I did find that adding a human figure and scaling him to 1.85 (So he's close to 6 feet) meters, really helps with scaling the ship and getting an idea of ship size and proportions.
There's only one problem with that: None of the ships in Oolite are in proportion with human size. They are much bigger than that.

Your ship, for instance, is about as big as an Adder. Thus it can't possibly be a cargo ship (the Adder cannot carry more than 2 tons of cargo).


Other than the issue of scale, though, it's looking nice. :D Does the "mouth" double as a fuel scoop? :wink:

User avatar
Disembodied
Jedi Spam Assassin
Jedi Spam Assassin
Posts: 6314
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:54 pm
Location: Carter's Snort

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Disembodied » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:37 pm

Paradox wrote:I would really like some input as to cargo capacity, speed, maneuverability etc, should be set to... I see a lot of diverse ships but some small fighter looking ships have large cargo capacities and then some large looking ship are the opposite... Is there some way to determine the "size" of the average "ton" to help us determine specs?
It's a little bit bigger (and quite a lot meaner-looking) than an Adder, so at a quick guess I'd say that cargo capacity of somewhere around 5TC wouldn't be hopelessly wide of the mark. But to be honest, scale is so messed up that these can only be vague guidelines: 7TC (same as a Moray, which is 60mx25x60) might be feasible, as the Moray must have a lot of added extras to account for its atmospheric and underwater capabilities. 10TC (same as a Cobra I, at 70mx15x55) might be stretching credibility - although there are always ways to explain things away ...

The best method, I think, is to think about gameplay, and then choose your specifications. Start with what would be fun to have, and work backwards from there. Some people think more is always better, and more fun; others prefer a balanced approach. If you take the first route then there's no need to make it rational at all: just make a tiny, fast, nimble ubership with a vast cargo bay and leave it at that. But it seems obvious that you'd rather make something which can be compared to other existing ships, so it's a matter of explaining away any differences, and balancing out the pros and cons.

You've got external missile and engine mounts, so maybe that might free up more space inside the ship, allowing for more cargo than its size might suggest. But if this is true, what's the downside? There needs to be a downside, otherwise all other ships would do this already. Is there a reduction in thrust, or top speed, thanks to the external engine mounts? Or do they make the ship less manoeuvrable? Or maybe regular performance is OK, but it's impossible to mount injectors without blowing the engines off? (I'm assuming it's possible to prevent players fitting injectors ...)

The Megalodon looks like the sort of ship which acquires cargo, rather than buys it - so combat performance is probably the primary consideration. With a front and rear laser, and a fairly slim cross-section, probably it favours diving in on, and running away from, its opponents. So maybe you want to make it reasonably fast in a straight line but a bit of a cow to steer. Or perhaps its pitch is OK, but it rolls like a hippo. Pick your characteristics, then add your justifications. It's your ship, and nobody is forced to use it if they don't want to (and, indeed, they can tweak it themselves to their heart's content).

User avatar
Smivs
Retired Assassin
Retired Assassin
Posts: 8408
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:31 am
Location: Disunited Kingdom
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Smivs » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:58 pm

Looks cool even for a shark/laser combo! :wink:
Just one thing - I think there is already a Megalodon. I can't find any reference to it but I seem to remember Mandoman doing a ship with that name.

Edited to add:- Found it - here, the Megaladon, so (very) slightly different spelling, but still enough to confuse I suspect.
Commander Smivs, the friendliest Gourd this side of Riedquat.

User avatar
Diziet Sma
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 6310
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:20 pm
Location: Aboard the Pitviper S.E. "Blackwidow"

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Diziet Sma » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:24 pm

G'day, Paradox, and welcome aboard! 8) (cool ship, btw)
Paradox wrote:Oh ya, did I forget to mention... "It's a shark with a frickin' laser on it's head!"
Oddly enough, that very phrase crossed my mind! :lol:


Regarding the above discussion about scale in Oolite, you may find it helpful to read these two threads and the related links in them.

http://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5613

http://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7503
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied

Paradox
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:24 am
Location: Aboard the D.T.T Snake Charmer: My Xanadu
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Paradox » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:30 pm

First off, before I get started, };] I want to thank you all for the welcome and the input!

I want to reply to Commander Diziet Sma first and say thank you so much for the links to the threads discussing the scaling issues in Oolite/Elite. They explained a lot of things and prevented me from opening up a rusty tin can full of dead worms, while at the same time depressed the hell out of me. }:]
Diziet Sma wrote:G'day, Paradox, and welcome aboard! 8) (cool ship, btw)
Regarding the above discussion about scale in Oolite, you may find it helpful to read these two threads and the related links in them.

http://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5613

http://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7503
So basically, what I gathered from the threads, the general attitude is "...it's screwed up, and it's not going to be changed..." Bummer...

Next, to Commander Smiv:
Smivs wrote:Looks cool even for a shark/laser combo!
Just one thing - I think there is already a Megalodon. I can't find any reference to it but I seem to remember Mandoman doing a ship with that name.

Edited to add:- Found it - here, the Megaladon, so (very) slightly different spelling, but still enough to confuse I suspect.
I thank you for the heads up Sir, and will have to consider a new name should I decide to release the ship to public consumption. };]

To Commander Disembodied: I am not going to quote you, but again let me say thank you for your advise and input. You too seem to be of a mind that things need to "make sense". I thank you for helping me put things into perspective.

And finally, to Commander McLane...

PTHTHTHTHT! }:P
Commander McLane wrote:There's only one problem with that: None of the ships in Oolite are in proportion with human size. They are much bigger than that.

Your ship, for instance, is about as big as an Adder. Thus it can't possibly be a cargo ship (the Adder cannot carry more than 2 tons of cargo).


Other than the issue of scale, though, it's looking nice. Does the "mouth" double as a fuel scoop?


Because Oolite/Elite did not bother to define ton/meter/feet/etc, and because developers choose not address the discrepancies, my ship can not only carry cargo, but as the picture below shows, it can easily fit 6 regulation cargo shipping containers 8' x 8.5' x 40' (whose dimensions and capacities are standardized across most of the world), each of which is capable of holding 29.52 Short (american) tons, for a total of 177.12 tons of cargo! PTHTHTHTH!

Image

And yes, the "mouth" is the cargo/fuel scoop, as well as the missile launcher, since I found out that you cannot define multiple missile locations, and that they must be launched from outside the models bounding box. }:[

There seem to be two kinds of Oolite players, the "Elite purists", who simply want an updated remake of the original, and then the "others" who are looking for a good space trading/combat simulator. I am of the second group. I personally am a bit "butt puckered" about "things making sense". Therefore, trying to fit "my word" into that of the Oolite universe, will probably be a bit problematic. I shall simply have to grit my teeth an bare it (or blast it into radioactive dust with my laser!). Anyways, I shall someday make an appropriate thread about my grumbles.

Thank you all again for the input. If there is interest, I will try to make this a "finished" product, and release it for download.

User avatar
Thargoid
Thargoid
Thargoid
Posts: 5510
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:55 pm

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Thargoid » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:51 pm

Paradox wrote:And yes, the "mouth" is the cargo/fuel scoop, as well as the missile launcher, since I found out that you cannot define multiple missile locations, and that they must be launched from outside the models bounding box. }:[
But it can be done by script. Griff and I put together a Cobbie3 with external missiles that used it, and it works very well.

Also missiles are set up so that collision detection isn't switched on at launch (I forget offhand what the delay is - I'm sure one of the dev's can fill in the details) to overcome some of the launch problems, although of course it's still not wise to try and fire one through the model of the ship launching it.

User avatar
Cody
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Posts: 13680
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:31 pm
Location: Corke's Drift
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Cody » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:04 pm

Thargoid wrote:But it can be done by script. Griff and I put together a Cobbie3 with external missiles that used it, and it works very well.
It works beautifully! One of my favourite occupations is teasing those Cobras from up-close, and watching their missiles launch!
Their dreams a tattered sail in the wind

User avatar
Commander McLane
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:08 am
Location: a Hacker Outpost in a moderately remote area
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Commander McLane » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:12 pm

Paradox wrote:Because Oolite/Elite did not bother to define ton/meter/feet/etc, and because developers choose not address the discrepancies, my ship can not only carry cargo, but as the picture below shows, it can easily fit 6 regulation cargo shipping containers 8' x 8.5' x 40' (whose dimensions and capacities are standardized across most of the world), each of which is capable of holding 29.52 Short (american) tons, for a total of 177.12 tons of cargo!
The standard Oolite cargo container is quite a lot bigger than a standard Earth shipping container, too. See here for the maths: http://www.aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.ph ... 28#p196028

And each of these containers can fit exactly 1TC (which has nothing to do with a "ton", by the way, and is widely accepted to be a unit of volume rather than mass).

Result: one Oolite container has the size of about three Earth containers. Your picture shows that you can fit six Earth containers into the ship. Which gives a cargo capacity of 2TC, exactly my guesstimate. :wink:

My suggestion is simple: don't take human size as a point of reference, but look at the sizes of other ships, preferably the core ships. Pick the ship which has a similar cargo capacity as you imagine for your ship, and adjust your ship's size to the size of that reference model. The best we can do is to at least keep different ships in reasonable proportions to each other. :)

Paradox
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:24 am
Location: Aboard the D.T.T Snake Charmer: My Xanadu
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Paradox » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:12 pm

Thargoid wrote:But it can be done by script. Griff and I put together a Cobbie3 with external missiles that used it, and it works very well.

Also missiles are set up so that collision detection isn't switched on at launch (I forget offhand what the delay is - I'm sure one of the dev's can fill in the details) to overcome some of the launch problems, although of course it's still not wise to try and fire one through the model of the ship launching it.
Sounds very cool, but I know myself better than to make the attempt to figure it out. I am a pixel pusher, not a code monkey. I know Wings3d/Poser/Photoshop inside and out, but when it comes to programming/scripting, unless it's something I can cut and paste or simple like Rainmeter (well some of it maybe...), I just don't have the patience or ability to wrap my brain cells around it. If someone here is interested in "officially" bringing this into the game, I will gladly give them the oxp/obj/wings files if they want. Otherwise, I guess I will simply use them in my own personal universe.
Commander McLane wrote:The standard Oolite cargo container is quite a lot bigger than a standard Earth shipping container, too. See here for the maths: http://www.aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.ph ... 28#p196028

And each of these containers can fit exactly 1TC (which has nothing to do with a "ton", by the way, and is widely accepted to be a unit of volume rather than mass).

Result: one Oolite container has the size of about three Earth containers. Your picture shows that you can fit six Earth containers into the ship. Which gives a cargo capacity of 2TC, exactly my guesstimate.

My suggestion is simple: don't take human size as a point of reference, but look at the sizes of other ships, preferably the core ships. Pick the ship which has a similar cargo capacity as you imagine for your ship, and adjust your ship's size to the size of that reference model. The best we can do is to at least keep different ships in reasonable proportions to each other.
But the sizes of most of the other ships are WRONG! };] LOL! Remember that pucker butt I mentioned earlier? Well, it's about to swallow my Lazyboy!

Like I said, making ships is just no fun for me if I can't make them make sense. I actually have designs for the complete interior of that ship...}:] No worries, like I said, I will simply use them in my own games, and if someone wants to convert them to a more "purist" format, then I will happily make all the files available.

I guess I could try to extract one of the original cargo containers from the game, and try to model around that while keeping the people the same size... We'll see.

Edit: Speaking of which, is barrel.dat it, as I don't see anything that looks like cargo container?

User avatar
Smivs
Retired Assassin
Retired Assassin
Posts: 8408
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:31 am
Location: Disunited Kingdom
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Smivs » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:34 pm

Paradox wrote: But the sizes of most of the other ships are WRONG! ... Like I said, making ships is just no fun for me if I can't make them make sense. I actually have designs for the complete interior of that ship.
The sizes are not wrong, just not what we expect. But then what should we expect?
How big is a Jump Drive, or an Energy Bank or a Military shield enhancer? We can't know. The evidence - the sizes of the ships - suggests they are quite big, which to me seems very reasonable. I expect they would be large machines as vast energies are probably involved requiring massive shielding and insulation, and they have to be physically strong to survive the hostile environment they are expected to work in.
Put simply, numerous large pieces of equipment need a big hull to contain them.
Commander Smivs, the friendliest Gourd this side of Riedquat.

User avatar
Commander McLane
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:08 am
Location: a Hacker Outpost in a moderately remote area
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Commander McLane » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:11 am

Paradox wrote:Speaking of which, is barrel.dat it, as I don't see anything that looks like cargo container?
Yep.

And regarding the sizes of the ships in the game, they're not wrong. They're in the game, and by definition nothing that's an integral part of the game can be wrong. At the end of the day, the game itself is the only real point of reference that exists.

The only thing you mustn't do is to put different categories of things (astronomical bodies, ships, and people) in a proportion to each other. Because of the scale issues you can't win this. The only (and the only sensible) reference you have is other members of the same category: construct ships in proportion to other ships, and planets or moons in proportion to other astronomical bodies. And don't worry about people, because they're not visually represented in the Ooniverse anyway.

Paradox
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:24 am
Location: Aboard the D.T.T Snake Charmer: My Xanadu
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Paradox » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:17 am

The correct quote was:
Paradox wrote:But the sizes of most of the other ships are WRONG! };] LOL! Remember that pucker butt I mentioned earlier? Well, it's about to swallow my Lazyboy!
I wasn't making this an attack or anything. Simply pointing out my own inability to reconcile the dimensional disparities that I perceive in the game. And since there have already been numerous other threads dedicated to the same, I am comforted in knowing that I am not the only one.
Commander McLane wrote:Because of the scale issues you can't win this.
I wasn't trying to "win" anything.. this wasn't a fight, argument, or even a debate... there isn't anything to win. This was just my own personal observation.
Commander McLane wrote:And don't worry about people, because they're not visually represented in the Ooniverse anyway.
But they are... Me.
Maybe I am the only one looking out at the Oolite universe through my computer screen and trying to imagine, for just a little while, that I am really sitting inside the cockpit (that happens to be the size of a football field?) of my very own spaceship, fighting off pirates (whose "small" fighters are on scale with the Titanic?)... Once again, for *me*, it puts a crimp in the whole "immersion" thing.

Look, whatever... your not going to change the whole game just to suit me. I am not, nor at any point, have I asked you too. Hell, I didn't even hit the suggestion thread yet... The game is what it is. I was just trying to find a way to enjoy it in a way that made sense to me.

Paradox
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:24 am
Location: Aboard the D.T.T Snake Charmer: My Xanadu
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Paradox » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:19 am

Onward and upward... or not so much in this case. After the overwhelming success of my first try (snort!) I decided to go to the other end of the spectrum and create this:
Image

The ONLY reference to size that I could find to Farscapes Leviathan, put it at "approximately" 1500 meters long. So blindly I rushed onward to model and texture one. Cloning the data from my first ship, making all the appropriate changes etc. I then hacked my testing save file and jumped into the game. Lo and Behold, there was my spinning Leviathan! YAY! Now for the test drive, gotta see how this baby handles...!

All you experienced ship builders know what coming next don't you... :oops:

KABOOM! right out of the gate! Ya, 1500 meter is too big to exit from the dock. SO... my question is, how do you test a large ship? }:]

User avatar
Commander McLane
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:08 am
Location: a Hacker Outpost in a moderately remote area
Contact:

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Commander McLane » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:32 am

Now that's a cool ship! :D And as far as I remember we haven't got any influence from Farscape in the Ooniverse yet.
Paradox wrote:how do you test a large ship? }:]
Large ships are best treated as NPCs only. A player ship that can't launch or dock at a standard main station is rather inconvenient, as you already discovered. And because Leviathans are living beings, it would make sense to (rarely) encounter one—even an unpiloted one—in the wild.

One tiny caveat: there is already a ship class named [wiki]Leviathan[/wiki] in Oolite. So you'd need to come up with a different name.

User avatar
Diziet Sma
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 6310
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:20 pm
Location: Aboard the Pitviper S.E. "Blackwidow"

Re: The Shipyard at the End of the Ooniverse. Modeller's b

Post by Diziet Sma » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:48 am

:shock:

OMG! That Leviathan looks just gorgeous!

In the course of some experimentation, I have launched a player version of the normally NPC-only battle-wagon of the Ooniverse, the Behemoth, from a station. A Behemoth tips the scales at 750m long, and I found that the stern was not clearing the dock before collision detection kicked in. (It's briefly disabled on launch for player ships) Basically the rotating dock was giving the tail end of the Behemoth a hefty whack as it turned, twisting and throwing the ship slightly off the straight-ahead course it was launched on.

So I'd guesstimate that some 800m or so of your Leviathan was still inside the station when it exploded. Given that a station has a diameter of 1000m, I'm sure you'll have no trouble visualising the problem. :lol:


(a minor point.. despite what it may appear, no-one was attacking you, or taking what you wrote as an attack.. we're a pretty friendly bunch here, although we are used to being frank in our views.. we also have a large number of members for whom English is not their primary language, -Commander McLane being a case in point- so subtleties of expression may be missed in both directions.. just something to be aware of and make allowances for)
Last edited by Diziet Sma on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied

Post Reply