Hoopy Casino

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spara
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Re: Hoopy Casino

Post by spara »

SirArian wrote: That makes sense. I was going to suggest that the likelihood of failure increased with the bid, but that wouldn't really solve the problem of saving to eliminate the risk... Maybe it could only be available if you have played a certain number of times?
Hoopy Casino wrote:"Congratulations, Commander Jameson, you have played 10,000 games at the Coachwhio Hoopy Casino! You are now qualified for the exclusive Hoopy VIP membership. For only 1000 Cr a month, you can increase your odds of winning BIG*, plus get a VIP discount card, saving you 20% at the Hoopy Bar!
*The odds of an actual win are not increased by this membership. You are simply allowed to stake more on your games, which means that a win is more profitable. Coachwhio is not responsible for credits lost in the game. Membership fees are non-refundable.
(Or something like that.)
Nice idea, thanks for sharing. I've been thinking that there could be two kinds of casinos. The current ones that are near the main station and a few other ones that are located away from the main station. These latter ones would be bigger and guarded by turrets. In practice systems that have Hoopy Casinos mentioned in their description would have these Vegas like stations. In these systems there would be no Hoopy near the main station.

These bigger stations could have per visit tier system that would trigger upon winning big. You would start with the basic options 10, 50 and 100. When your total winnings reach 1000, you'll gain access to tier two betting options, 100, 500 an 1000. There could also be tier 3 that would be locked at 10000. That would be 1000, 5000 and 10000. Leave the station and you'll be tier 1 again. That would effectively make exploiting hard and would give some incentive to keep on playing.

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Re: Hoopy Casino

Post by SirArian »

spara wrote:These bigger stations could have per visit tier system that would trigger upon winning big. You would start with the basic options 10, 50 and 100. When your total winnings reach 1000, you'll gain access to tier two betting options, 100, 500 an 1000. There could also be tier 3 that would be locked at 10000. That would be 1000, 5000 and 10000. Leave the station and you'll be tier 1 again. That would effectively make exploiting hard and would give some incentive to keep on playing.
That would work too!

By the way, you can loose money on Blackjack too... I started a new commander, (Cobra 1 start) flew to Zaonce, did some trading, and then headed to the Casino with 160ish credits. When I left, I had 7.something... And they kicked me out when I couldn't afford the minimum bet. So I went hunting deepspace pirates, killed two, and then the third had a missile, and a scanner jammer, so I couldn't use my missile to trigger their ECM... :( So I'm back to 160ish.
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Re: Hoopy Casino

Post by CheeseRedux »

spara wrote:It seems that it was the intent of the original author of this oxp to create an easily exploitable market. Conversation at the beginning of this thread and the flavor text in wiki imply that. Now the question is, should we keep it that way and let it break the game (to some degree) or should something be done with it? Now that there are three gambling games to play (and at least one more to come) making the role of the casino more clear, I feel that the lottery called "Commodity Markets" is no longer needed and should be removed all together.
That's not my impression at all. The markets are very limited, and also fit with the theme of a casino: Booze can fetch a decent price, since they obviously sell it on to the customers. Then there are cheap furs and gems, the kind of things you'd imagine desperate patrons would be liquidating to finance that one spin of the wheel they need to turn their luck around.
As long as the quantities of pawn shop goods remain small, and the import price of booze (and food?) stay at a reasonable level, I see them as adding to the atmosphere rather than my bank balance.
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Re: Hoopy Casino

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SirArian wrote:...That would work too!
After a bit of more pondering I think there will be a tier system that is linked to the bets made. In practice you have to play 10 times with the highest bet to qualify to the higher stakes. And to prevent save exploiting, the tier will reset when you leave the casino. I'm still toying with the idea of this being the feature of bigger casinos located farther away from the main station.
SirArian wrote: By the way, you can loose money on Blackjack too...
Deal the cards one more time... :wink:
CheeseRedux wrote:
spara wrote:It seems that it was the intent of the original author of this oxp to create an easily exploitable market. Conversation at the beginning of this thread and the flavor text in wiki imply that. Now the question is, should we keep it that way and let it break the game (to some degree) or should something be done with it? Now that there are three gambling games to play (and at least one more to come) making the role of the casino more clear, I feel that the lottery called "Commodity Markets" is no longer needed and should be removed all together.
That's not my impression at all. The markets are very limited, and also fit with the theme of a casino: Booze can fetch a decent price, since they obviously sell it on to the customers. Then there are cheap furs and gems, the kind of things you'd imagine desperate patrons would be liquidating to finance that one spin of the wheel they need to turn their luck around.
As long as the quantities of pawn shop goods remain small, and the import price of booze (and food?) stay at a reasonable level, I see them as adding to the atmosphere rather than my bank balance.
Good to hear opposite thoughts :D . Currently I'm not touching markets at all, as I'm busy writing "one more" card game to the mix :mrgreen: . As long as quantities are kept really low and prices close to the main station prices so that the possible "free" profit is low, I see no real problem here. Overall it's just something I feel good to ponder thoroughly. For Oolite 1.81 and up, the market needs to be rewritten anyway.

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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Had a closer look at the commodities market and it's really broken. The price differences are way off the scale to be that close to the main station. At Zaonce a double price for Gems. I don't think ambiance justifies that. I think I'll just put in the main station market and nullify the commodities that were originally left out. To my reasoning a station that close to the main station should have approximately the same prices as the main station. RNG will then take care of price differences.

About the higher stakes. I tested and tested and concluded that 100 credits as a max stake is the highest there should be. In blackjack you can win 800 credits in best case scenario and I think it should not go over that. Too "easy" money otherwise. And there's always video poker that can give you 40000 credits, if you're really lucky :mrgreen: .

That also means that I'm not going to make those bigger casinos. I'll just move the current one's a little farther.

Next version is almost ready. This time it's time for some Hold'em.

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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spara wrote:Had a closer look at the commodities market and it's really broken. The price differences are way off the scale to be that close to the main station. At Zaonce a double price for Gems. I don't think ambiance justifies that. I think I'll just put in the main station market and nullify the commodities that were originally left out. To my reasoning a station that close to the main station should have approximately the same prices as the main station.
You're wrong. Physical proximity has no effect on market similarity. For many years I had a drug dealer who used to sell cannabis to the local schoolkids living two houses down the street. Here, at my house, price was always zero and available quantity was always zero. Just 50m away was a flourishing market.

The way you and cim perceive the oolite economy, with prices spreading like an infection from one market to those nearby, is completely wrong.

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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Thanks for the input Wildeblood. Let me rephrase my point for those who might get me wrong. One of the game mechanics for achieving credits is buying low and selling high. If that is too easy, then it breaks the game. If two stations with wildly different markets are very close to each other, in this case in an Aegis, trading gets way too easy. A few credits is fine for the ambiance, but hundreds is just wrong.

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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spara wrote:Had a closer look at the commodities market and it's really broken. The price differences are way off the scale to be that close to the main station. At Zaonce a double price for Gems. I don't think ambiance justifies that. I think I'll just put in the main station market and nullify the commodities that were originally left out. To my reasoning a station that close to the main station should have approximately the same prices as the main station. RNG will then take care of price differences.
"It's broken" is not – in principle – a valid argument for taking it out.

The first question to ask if there should be a market. I happen to think that a limited pawn shop type of market is a logical fit. Looking at what was put in there originally, that seems to fit with the thinking of the original author. The nature of this would be a place where you could pick up small quantities of bargain goods. Not somewhere to offload your current cargo for huge profits.

So if you get double gem prices, it is obviously in need of repair. I don't think duplicating the main market is a good solution, though. It would mean that whenever you find a bargain at the main station you can pick up double the amount, or if you find a good price you can exceed the 127 limit. Even if it's just for a limited selection of goods, that's a far more reliable source of income than the occasional once-in-a-lifetime deal thrown up by the RNG.

Now, whether the amount of work needed to fix whatever needs fixing is justified, that's something only the person doing the actual work can decide…
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Re: Hoopy Casino

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Is there a way to allow players to stake commodities (at least gold, platinum and gems) instead of credits? So that bets were made, and winnings paid, in grams of gemstones, or kg of gold or platinum? It would allow different ranks of games, since (very roughly) 1g of gems is about half the price of 1 kg of gold, which is about half the price of 1 kg of platinum. It might also make it harder for the player to notice if they're losing, and indeed provide a reason for players to visit the casino in the first place ... I find that I often accumulate large piles of gems, gold and platinum, and could be tempted to find something fun to do with them instead of waiting until I hit some system with a high selling price.

The casino's own commodity market could offer high prices for gems, gold and platinum, but - crucially - they could always have 127 g/kg in stock, so the player can't just use the casinos as places to sell these items.

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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Disembodied wrote:The casino's own commodity market could offer high prices for gems, gold and platinum, but - crucially - they could always have 127 g/kg in stock, so the player can't just use the casinos as places to sell these items.
I tested something like that with ConStores and it is one probability. Then again stock of 127 with high prices would seem futile as the player would not use it.

This question seems to be a tricky one. I would still prefer taking the market out all together, but that's just my personal opinion. Another thing to note is that Casinos are mobile stations and their markets are not preserved over saves. Meaning that save/load will refresh the market. That would need to be dealt too :( .

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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My opinion: no commodity markets!

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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Cody wrote:My opinion: no commodity markets!
If you're not interested in the market you've no reason to ever press F8. And if you don't press it you won't ever find out if there is a market there or not, and if so what prices are there. Players who want an arcade shoot 'em up with no trading should just exercise some self-control. When I was playing oolite I never looked at the shipyard screen, so I can't tell you which stations had the shipyard enabled and which didn't. Why can't the no-trading-just-shooting lobby embrace this same simple technique of not looking at things that don't interest them, instead of trying to ruin the game for everyone else?

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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spara wrote:
Disembodied wrote:The casino's own commodity market could offer high prices for gems, gold and platinum, but - crucially - they could always have 127 g/kg in stock, so the player can't just use the casinos as places to sell these items.
I tested something like that with ConStores and it is one probability. Then again stock of 127 with high prices would seem futile as the player would not use it.

This question seems to be a tricky one. I would still prefer taking the market out all together, but that's just my personal opinion. Another thing to note is that Casinos are mobile stations and their markets are not preserved over saves. Meaning that save/load will refresh the market. That would need to be dealt too :( .
Personally, I agree: ditch the markets, and the refuelling/repair functions too (although I still like the idea of having players place their stakes in gems, gold and platinum, for low-, medium- and high-stakes games, but it's probably a lot more work than it would be worth). The purpose of a casino is to allow players to gamble, not to provide another little spot where they can trade. If players want other market stations, they can install the OXPs. If they don't want casinos, then they don't have to install this one.

I also think they're better off situated outside the aegis, between the Witchpoint and the station, providing players with a break on a long trip. Place them off-lane, a bit, but cover them in neon so people will see them from waaay away, and think "Ooh!" ... there's a reason Vegas is in the middle of a desert!

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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Disembodied wrote: Personally, I agree: ditch the markets, and the refuelling/repair functions too (although I still like the idea of having players place their stakes in gems, gold and platinum, for low-, medium- and high-stakes games, but it's probably a lot more work than it would be worth). The purpose of a casino is to allow players to gamble, not to provide another little spot where they can trade. If players want other market stations, they can install the OXPs. If they don't want casinos, then they don't have to install this one.

I also think they're better off situated outside the aegis, between the Witchpoint and the station, providing players with a break on a long trip. Place them off-lane, a bit, but cover them in neon so people will see them from waaay away, and think "Ooh!" ... there's a reason Vegas is in the middle of a desert!
The idea of using valuables for playing is an interesting one. You would need some to play at all. Dock the station and you would get chips worth the valuables. Something like 20 for a g of gems, 40 for a kg of gold and 80 for a g of platinum. When you leave, the chips are turned back to valuables and extra chips are reserved for your next visit. This is a really interesting concept, but is it too much hassle for the player?

At least I think that the player should be able to turn his/her valuables into credits and play. That requires there to be a market that has prices for gems, gold and platinum. Preferably with 0 quantities. The price should be just below the main station price as this is not meant to be for easy money between the main station and the casino.

I'll need to ponder the placement a little more. Saving at the casino is a no-no because of the obvious exploit of saving between gambling. So the station should not be very far from the main station. The original station is configured to approach the main station to 15 000 and hold there. That on the other hand is quite close.

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Re: Hoopy Casino

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spara wrote:At least I think that the player should be able to turn his/her valuables into credits and play. That requires there to be a market that has prices for gems, gold and platinum. Preferably with 0 quantities. The price should be just below the main station price as this is not meant to be for easy money between the main station and the casino.
This might actually be a good way for players who feel they have too many credits to dispose of them. I think the games are fun enough that the odds could be slightly in favor of the casino and people would still play.
spara wrote:Then again stock of 127 with high prices would seem futile as the player would not use it.
What if you could get it to hold around 110-120 that way players would still use it but wouldn't be able to exploit it so easily.
Disembodied wrote:I also think they're better off situated outside the aegis, between the Witchpoint and the station, providing players with a break on a long trip.
I like this idea, I wouldn't mind hitting the casino, playing a little blackjack, selling 7 TC of liquor for a tidy profit and maybe picking up 5 TC of furs, then on to the mainstation for fuel, repairs and the rest of my trading.

I have 1 other thought that may be to much of a pain to implement. How about some other players in the poker/blackjack games. I don't know how hard it might be to do something like this. I'm sure creating an AI for NPC poker players could be challenging but if it could be done it would be great.

All in all spara I think you have done a wonderful job of helping this oxp reach its fullest potential, the games are very 8) . Thanks to everyone who contributed and of course many thanks to Murph for creating the original concept for us.
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