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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:53 am 
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This is why we recommend that any new player starts with an unmodified game for a couple of days or so, then slowly and one at a time, start adding OXPs, removing what they don't like, until they have a set of expansions they are happy with. Then it is the player themselves that decide what fits or not and what changes things or doesn't, rather any community member who decides to make a compilation OXP and upload it to the manager. If a new player sees a recommended pack by someone, there is a very good chance they'll download it - it's just human nature, they will pick the road of less fatigue, but in doing so in this case, they may end up playing a game different to what they might have wanted to enjoy.

Which reminds me, what will happen when other members start adding collection OXPs to the manager by the dozen? It's just a matter of time, so best discuss it now rather than later. Norby's Addons for Beginners is just one possible collection out of... I don't know, thousands? And it's certainly not the compilation that I, and maybe others too, would recommend for new players. I have a completely different set in mind and probably everyone reading this have their own set in mind too. What will a newbie think when a few months from now they see on the expansions list: Addons for Beginners by Norby, Newbie's Best OXPs by another_commander, WhatANewPlayerNeeds expansion pack by PackCreatorA, Starters' AddOns by PackCreatorB, and so on and so forth?

All the above is just an honest personal opinion. I don't mind one way or another; I think I have a pretty good idea what OXPs I want in my game or what a new player should check out and certainly will not try to stop anyone from uploading their creations on the manager. But I feel that the way that has been till now, with new players making their own decisions for themselves has always been the right way to do it and one of the beauties of Oolite.

Redspear, there is no hot linking to wiki pages from the manager. However, there is an information page accessible by the "i" key for each OXP in the list. I hope that will be sufficient guide for new players. The OXP creators should fill this information field as well as they can and in the most descriptive manner possible.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:50 am 
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I suggest a new "r" (recommends) filter which list the required and optional packages of the currently selected one.
Optional packages are not shown at all yet, sadly because exactly fit into the "install one at a time" principle.
In this way collections can be used as guides to reduce the size of the full list and make possible not installing the whole collection but "step into", read and select what you want from a short list.

Now I removed ILS, Market Inquirer, Total Patrol and Variable Masslock as I suggested above due to nobody complained against. Technincally I set these to optional, in this way nobody will think these are parts of the core game, surely must install by hand.

Another question about manager: could we get a "k" hotkey in the package list view (next to the "f") to find a keyword faster than the current typing "f" then "k:" then the keyword?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:16 pm 
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Norby's collection does at least address one or two common issues for beginners, so, similar to his filter idea...

How about some sort of FAQ of game difficulties (whether on the boards or via the manager) so that the player can look for 'fixes' for what's troubling them in the game.
They could post on the boards of course but some might be reluctant to do so (I played oolite for 3 years prior to my first post).

Beginners frustrations (and some suggested oxp 'fixes' off the top of my head) might include:
  • Docking - station rotation, docklights, ILS
    Combat - target autolock, energy bomb
    Masslock - variable masslock, time acceleration
    etc.
Any merit?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:32 pm 
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Any merit?
I really don't think so. As I've said elsewhere anything that makes the basics of the game easier is ultimately un-helpful. All these things do is prevent new players from learning and developing the skills they need - skills which are actually quick and easy to learn by and large. Like you I played for a long time before joining this community and I also didn't start using OXPs for an equally long time. By the time I started dabbling in expansions I had long since mastered all the basics, so things like these would have been no use or interest to me anyway. Like anything worthwhile, Oolite takes a bit of learning at the start, but the learning time would be short for most people (if they give themselves the chance) and the benefits are immeasurable.
The 'fix' as you call it is simple practice!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:46 pm 
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Practice (crudely) = application + time

The first I think we can reasonably request, the second is a very precious commodity.

In all my time playing Oolite, I have 'achieved' very little in the game as my time is often very limited in terms of what I allocate to oolite.

Some want to go on a big journey but others dont want or dont have the time to do so. To me, the Cobra III is a super-ship, it doesn't seem right having it as my first ship. Is anyone who choses 'easy' as a difficulty setting wrong or cheating themselves?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:14 pm 
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anything that makes the basics of the game easier
The mentioned group of addons in general is not the best for newbies at start, I agree. If somebody can not achieve a skill enough fast then probably will find a helper and solve his need anyway. So my goal is not a "Helpers for beginners" collection here.

But there is another group which just extend the game without making it easier and good for beginners as one of the first OXPs to use when decide to use OXPs at all - Ring Racer is a good example.

My main problem is which addon is in which group. The decision is not so easy due to all of us have a personal viewpoint only, so I ask for as many opinions as possible. But much easier to decide if a thought specific for an OXP.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:00 pm 
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My main problem is which addon is in which group. The decision is not so easy due to all of us have a personal viewpoint only, so I ask for as many opinions as possible. But much easier to decide if a thought specific for an OXP.
I like Miner Cobra... maybe 75t is a bit much (somewhere nearer 50 for me) but a nice idea and I think you've 'cut' in the right places. Good for the early game if given a high chance of appearing @Lave or any of the safer systems nearby IMO.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:02 pm 
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Good for the early game if given a high chance of appearing @Lave or any of the safer systems nearby IMO.
Thanks, the chance is 30% so probably there is one somewhere in the old worlds, but the system is not determinable due to randomized by each oxp which contain a ship.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:26 pm 
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Good for the early game if given a high chance of appearing @Lave or any of the safer systems nearby IMO.
Thanks, the chance is 30% so probably there is one somewhere in the old worlds, but the system is not determinable due to randomized by each oxp which contain a ship.
I think it's possible to create a variant of the ship (using the original as a template) at 100% probability but also with a condition script so that particular variant (the high probability version) only appears at planets x, y & z...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:30 pm 
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only appears at planets x, y & z...
I think the current uncertainty is a good thing. When start a new game then shouldn't known where will be the ship available.

Now I made an Ambience Collection for beginners also by removing the followings from my recommendations:
-Additional Planets: far stations is not for beginners imho and planets without stations can be fustrating if accidentally go to one then realize the station is not there.
-BroadcastComms: can change the gameplay and maybe too complex for a beginner.
-Docking fees: docking is free for beginners.
-Escort Formations: simple formation mean easy identification of trader or pirate groups.
-Headlights: needed with realistic stars only which is removed also.
-Pirate Coves: a bit easier without this.
-Planetary Compass: is not needed without extra planets.
-Realistic Stars: leave stars at the default position.
-Start Choices: harder start need competent pilot.

All others are leaved in, after I read again the wiki pages I think no problems with those.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:34 pm 
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Any merit?
I really don't think so. As I've said elsewhere anything that makes the basics of the game easier is ultimately un-helpful. All these things do is prevent new players from learning and developing the skills they need - skills which are actually quick and easy to learn by and large. Like you I played for a long time before joining this community and I also didn't start using OXPs for an equally long time. By the time I started dabbling in expansions I had long since mastered all the basics, so things like these would have been no use or interest to me anyway. Like anything worthwhile, Oolite takes a bit of learning at the start, but the learning time would be short for most people (if they give themselves the chance) and the benefits are immeasurable.
The 'fix' as you call it is simple practice!
As a brand new player, with no flight simulator experience at all, of a previous generation, with a buttload of computer and gaming experience, I have to put in my 2 ¢. A game like Oolite has a very steep learning curve, there's 3D movement, trading, combat, repair, and so on, and each of those consist of a million little details. Now, as I've passed the 50 yrs old mark, learning does not come automatic to me anymore, and I don't get all the things you might find so patently obvious: I need all the help I can. I'm currently stuck in the tutorial, trying to get my ship from rolling and pitching wildly out of control, so I apply the controls to conquer that, and see no discernible change to the markers positions after I release the controls, so I hit the Web to find some help on getting my ship under control, return five minutes later, none the wiser to the game, and now the ship is rolling as speedily the other way.

Yes, I want a handy compilation of OXPs for the beginner, so I can more gradually get into the game, and then later remove such AddOns as I don't need or want anymore, or start a vanilla game, _after_ I've managed to get any fun out of the game at all. Please don't insist on keeping things too hard for the likes of me, because of it gets too tough, I'd get disheartened and return to other games I do get more fun out of.

And if anyone can give me any advice on how to get a ship out of wild spinning to a (nearly) complete immobility, I'd be most grateful.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:37 pm 
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And if anyone can give me any advice on how to get a ship out of wild spinning to a (nearly) complete immobility, I'd be most grateful.
Which control method are you using - KB/mouse or KB/stick? Oh, and welcome aboard!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:49 pm 
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And if anyone can give me any advice on how to get a ship out of wild spinning to a (nearly) complete immobility, I'd be most grateful.
Which control method are you using - KB/mouse or KB/stick? Oh, and welcome aboard!
KB+Mouse, never got a thingy, well, I have/had one, but never got to play a game using it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:06 pm 
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Okay, I'm a 'stick player so I'll wait for a mouse user to pitch in. Your comments as a new player are very welcome, btw.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:17 pm 
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Okay, I'm a 'stick player so I'll wait for a mouse user to pitch in. Your comments as a new player are very welcome, btw.
Thank you.

I'll explain my difficulty further, at any rate.

I'm flying a spaceship in a (near) vacuum, my ship is rolling clockwise at a certain speed, so I apply the Right arrow key, now the image spins the other way around, so I'd think I'd applied some counter-clockwise thrust from mini-thrusters for that purpose, now I let go of the key and my ship resumes its rapid clockwise spinning. This makes no sense to me at all in any scientific manner, because whatever I did, the speed of rotation should have been altered, slowed or even reversed, had I over-applied counter-thrust.

Oh, and just discovered, if I pause the game while coming here to read or write, when I come back and unpause, the situation is _not_ as I left it.
Just now I was to near no roll and no pitch, paused, ordered food online, unpaused, and I was once more spinning wildly.

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