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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 3:25 pm 
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This metapackage install a smaller collection of useful packages for new pilots to get the most wanted addons easily. I choosed this name willfully to be the first in the manager, providing a quick start without forcing to read through the full addon list before the first launch.

I selected ambiences and basic helpers to keep the game without serious changes. The actual list is in the wiki page and you can see within the manager when you press "i".

Suggestions are welcomed, but please consider that I plan another addons package for compentent players also with more recommended packages which should make another step in extending the game when the player completed the possibilities of this first round.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 3:34 pm 
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As I've said many times before, I don't favour this type of meta-package - but there you go!

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 3:47 pm 
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That's quite a sensible list on the whole, although my personal view is that these lists are not a good idea. I would have serious doubts about ILS, Target Autolock and ReverseControl, as these will inhibit new players from developing necessary skills.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 5:15 pm 
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As I've said many times before, I don't favour this type of meta-package
This is not for players who already selected his favourite list of course, but you can skip it easily in the manager and others maybe like it. Another goal is to leave out the too basic packages from the competent recommendations, for example docking lights can disturb those who can dock without any help.
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I would have serious doubts about ILS, Target Autolock and ReverseControl, as these will inhibit new players from developing necessary skills.
ILS is an equipment so I guess new players will try dock without this help willfully regardless of installed.

Target Autolock cause no problem imho due to need unset the target lock to work at all so the proper usage can improve other skills in exchange and usually the same target locking skill is needed regadless of this is installed.

ReverseControl is where you are right in the missing skill development. My idea is to set a conflict in the competent recommendation package where the original control will return, so the player should learn this skill a bit later.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 5:29 pm 
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I'm not too hot about compilations either, but I'm sure there are people out there that will enjoy these. For clarity, I think we should have a new category for these: "Compilations".


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 5:33 pm 
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That sounds sensible to me - good idea. :)

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 5:43 pm 
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As I've said many times before, I don't favour this type of meta-package
This is not for players who already selected his favourite list of course...
Yeah, I'm aware of that - but my main concern is leading new players into someone else's Ooniverse.
I'm also aware that nothing I say here will make any difference - you will do what you wish, regardless!

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 5:53 pm 
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...my main concern is leading new players into someone else's Ooniverse.
I am concerned by that myself, but my main worry is that people (yes, mainly newcomers who don't really know the game) can grab a whole load of expansions without ever having researched them. The 'old fashioned' way of selecting them for yourself (usually via the wiki table) at least meant that the player has probably read-up on them and know what they are and what they do. In other words they have a much better idea of how the expansions they have chosen might affect the core game and are much better placed to avoid those silly 'what caused this problem?' issues that litter this forum.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 pm 
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The 'old fashioned' way of selecting them for yourself (usually via the wiki table) at least meant that the player has probably read-up on them and know what they are and what they do. In other words they have a much better idea of how the expansions they have chosen might affect the core game and are much better placed to avoid those silly 'what caused this problem?' issues that litter this forum.
This. I was pretty careful to read as much as I could on every OXP I installed. First of all, I have peculiar (and swirly) tastes in what I want in a game, and there are quite a few OXP's that simply don't interest me. But there are also issues of play balance, computing power, and so forth, and so on, and such-and-such, and et-cetera, et al, don't be a zebra.

However, that being said, there are a /lot/ of older OXP's that simply are hard to notice. More than once, I've mentioned something in a post and had someone point out an OXP that isn't linked on the wiki or included in the expansion manager, which means I had almost no way of even knowing it existed! Some of them have been /very/ useful and interesting, but you wouldn't know it from the lack of promotion. Even if there's a dusty thread somewhere here that references the OXP, you're not likely to find it if you don't know to look for it....

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 6:23 pm 
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I'm not too hot about compilations either, but I'm sure there are people out there that will enjoy these. For clarity, I think we should have a new category for these: "Compilations".
I like that.

For the record and to balance the mood here, I think that Norby's Beginner compilation is a very good thing.

And concerning the research on OXPs by players, well what I would have liked myself, and what I would LOVE would be a way to click in the expansions manager on the wiki url of the oxp (redirected to the OS which would open it through the default browser without oolite doing anything).
That way, players would be encouraged to learn about the available plugins.


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 6:48 pm 
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my main concern is leading new players into someone else's Ooniverse.
Based on requests for "essential" packages there are players who need other's Ooniverses, at least for ideas, then can customize further. My description mention that you can remove anything after the collection is installed to help this.

There is a high probability that the player will read the descriptions at least below the installed packages in the manager so I do not afraid from unwanted ones.

Furthermore now I inserted another message to the end of description: "Warning: do not install this collection if you plan to read through the whole addon list and can spend enough time to build up your very unique Ooniverse."
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I'm also aware that nothing I say here will make any difference - you will do what you wish, regardless!
I always try and usually can find acceptable solutions for as many people as possible. Just I can't remove the whole collection for you due to there are needs also.
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a new category for these: "Compilations".
Collections is better imho due to I use "compiler" in another meaning. But I have a problem: if this category is sorted alphabetically with others then the content sink after many other packages, so players will install many packages first just to find later that these are avaiable in a collection also. So I think we either do not need a new category or need order this before others.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 7:03 pm 
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...my main concern is leading new players into someone else's Ooniverse.
These kind of lists are, of course, problematic in that concensus is highly elusive.

Having said that I think it is actually the ambience and entity oxps (speaking generally rather than about Norby's list) that are the most ooniverse altering, although some equipment could fall into that category too... This beginners list seems to be more about making the game less 'fiddley' at the start by addressing potential frustrations such as docking, mass-lock and even finding the station and so is very much suited to the beginner who never played elite.

To some veterans those 'fiddley bits' were all part of the charm but consider that the typical journey from entering the system to docking at the station often takes much longer in oolite, with far more mass-locks. So fluffing your docking attempt after making it to the station is likely even more frustrating than it was with elite.
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I would have serious doubts about ILS, Target Autolock and ReverseControl, as these will inhibit new players from developing necessary skills.
Well, they'll only need those skills should they decide later to uninstall this collection - by which time they'll be more familiar with the game and have less things to learn at once. Maybe I'm missing the point but I don't see the problem here... :?:
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Suggestions are welcomed, but please consider that I plan another addons package for compentent players also with more recommended packages which should make another step in extending the game when the player completed the possibilities of this first round.
I think the proposed 'competent' package is likely to be far more debateable in terms of content because, as a player, once you've got the basics sorted out it really is about making the ooniverse your own as Cody suggests. Although if a player liked your beginners package then why wouldn't they like to try your competent one? They'd likely feel that they trusted your judgement by then.

Suggestion: If you're going to do a competent package then I'd suggest breaking it up into themes, e.g. shipyard (ships and equipment), stations (dockables and markets), missions (missions and oddities), then each (smaller) package will address a clear theme - much as this beginners one does. The player can then address what they feel is missing rather than expanding many aspects of the game all at once.
Just my opinion of course, so feel free to ignore :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 7:12 pm 
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I think the proposed 'competent' package is likely to be far more debateable in terms of content because, as a player, once you've got the basics sorted out it really is about making the ooniverse your own as Cody suggests. Although if a player liked your beginners package then why wouldn't they like to try your competent one? They'd likely feel that they trusted your judgement by then.

Suggestion: If you're going to do a competent package then I'd suggest breaking it up into themes, e.g. shipyard (ships and equipment), stations (dockables and markets), missions (missions and oddities), then each (smaller) package will address a clear theme - much as this beginners one does. The player can then address what they feel is missing rather than expanding many aspects of the game all at once.
If it's broken into themes, then maybe it's finally useless as a metapackage.

For competent players, I would welcome an "omnimod" with the most possible oxps :-p


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 7:33 pm 
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But I have a problem: if this category is sorted alphabetically with others then the content sink after many other packages, so players will install many packages first just to find later that these are avaiable in a collection also. So I think we either do not need a new category or need order this before others.
TBH this is one of my issues with the way this has been done. Naming and categorizing something to ensure it is on the First Page is a bit cheeky at best. So I don't think that forcing compilations or collections or whatever to be the first category in the manager is such a good idea, although I do agree with the logic behind the suggestion.
I was thinking about this the other day when I had to page through nearly the whole list to find an OXZ I was looking for. I wondered then if there was a possible solution? There is - Have the first page as an index of the categories. I don't know how difficult this would be to do of course.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 7:47 pm 
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If it's broken into themes, then maybe it's finally useless as a metapackage.
Quite possibly :wink:
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I was thinking about this the other day when I had to page through nearly the whole list to find an OXZ I was looking for. I wondered then if there was a possible solution? There is - Have the first page as an index of the categories. I don't know how difficult this would be to do of course.
Likewise, I don't know how easy but it sounds good to me.

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