Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

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Wildeblood
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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Wildeblood »

Well, the images and discussion above about having a column on the market screen just to display the legality of goods prompted me to make another plug-in for AI Trading Assistant called AI Trading Legality Reminder.

Cim, I think mimicking the approach I have used, to have a non-specific writable column and allowing an unlimited number of functions to plug into it, is preferable to using the available space on the market screen for one specific purpose and not leaving any space for Trading Assistant or similar OXPs to use.

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Neelix »

Diziet Sma wrote:Going by the posts in various discussions over the years, loads of them.. but most would probably not make use of the Trading Assistant/Autotrade OXPs anyway. Certainly I haven't.. largely out of concern that it might inadvertently mess with my contract goods.
Same here.

Wildeblood wrote:Well, the images and discussion above about having a column on the market screen just to display the legality of goods prompted me to make another plug-in for AI Trading Assistant called AI Trading Legality Reminder.

Cim, I think mimicking the approach I have used, to have a non-specific writable column and allowing an unlimited number of functions to plug into it, is preferable to using the available space on the market screen for one specific purpose and not leaving any space for Trading Assistant or similar OXPs to use.
I think I would have to agree with that. I don't particularly want that much screen space devoted to legality, (or any for that matter, I still think a colour change is all that's needed) when there are more useful items that could be put in the same space, and the idea of making that space available to OXPs appeals to me.

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by cim »

I think the legality column - especially since it may vary between stations for the same trade good - is probably necessary. With four basic options I don't think colour-coding is necessarily going to be obvious.

There is, I think, just about room even with that to fit an "extra" column.
Image

My inclination is to have the column hidden if no OXP which wants it is installed by setting its column header and default value to the empty string in descriptions.plist. OXPs which want to add extra features for widescreen can do so because of the way the GUI printing works: the column there is set to.

Code: Select all

"Hello                                                                                                          zzz        yyy           xxx"
Obviously if multiple OXPs want to use the same column there is likely to be a fight... (even which one gets the column header out of descriptions.plist is going to depend on loading order). I would recommend accepting that this just won't work and declaring explicit conflicts in the manifest.

.... On the legality column, I really can't decide if it makes more sense to say "Im" for "Import is legal" or "Ex" for "Export is illegal" in that column.

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Cody »

cim wrote:On the legality column, I really can't decide if it makes more sense to say "Im" for "Import is legal" or "Ex" for "Export is illegal" in that column.
Change Law to Legal, perhaps?

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by cim »

Cody wrote:Change Law to Legal, perhaps?
I had it as that before for a while, and thought it looked wrong to have "Legal: -" mean "entirely legal". Maybe that's not a problem.

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Cody »

Hmm... perhaps Legal? then?

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Wildeblood »

cim wrote:I think the legality column - especially since it may vary between stations for the same trade good - is probably necessary.
But it isn't necessary for it to be continuously displayed. Display it on entering the market screen, then let the player change to more useful information in that column.
cim wrote:Obviously if multiple OXPs want to use the same column there is likely to be a fight...
Since I've already demonstrated that it's possible to add an unlimited number of alternative displays, that comment is just stupid. Trading Assistant currently includes displays of average cost, opportunity cost (how long you've been dragging cargo around), buy or sell recommendation, arbitrage between current station and main station, and optionally legality reminder and an alternative purchase cost that mimics Market Observer. I've previously created other plug-ins with e.g. emoticons :-) for open trades in the money, and :-( for trades that would lose money. But I've never considered trying to display more than one at a time, because the market screen is ugly enough with just one extra column added.

What we need from you is a way to write the column header from javascript and having it green like the others, rather than hard-coding it in descriptions.plist or hud.plist, or having it the wrong colour if written with the rest of the column.

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Disembodied »

Perhaps this is overcomplicating things, but with regard to legality, might it make more sense to move all illegal goods off the F8 screen and on to a separate "Black Market" screen - one which perhaps requires a certain amount of reputation/small introductory mission (nothing more complex than "being approached by a shady type" as per the Trumbles) before the player gets access to it? What's on the F8 market, and what's on the black market, will vary from system to system, but it'll be immediately obvious whether something is legally buyable or sellable. Goods that are only OK to import could be sold by the player on the F8 screen, but there would be no stock to buy. If they're not legal to import, they won't appear at all (or might be greyed out, perhaps).

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Diziet Sma »

Disembodied wrote:might it make more sense to move all illegal goods off the F8 screen and on to a separate "Black Market" screen
VERY interesting suggestion! Me likes.
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Cody »

Wildeblood wrote:... that comment is just stupid.
That comment is just rude!

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Pleb »

Cody wrote:
Wildeblood wrote:... that comment is just stupid.
That comment is just rude!
*Runs and covers in a barrel shaking as the obvious war of words begins...*

On a more serious note, I am liking the new economic changes being made and have tried them out from the branch on GitHub. I like Disembodied's idea of a seperate Black Market screen, although this is quite similar to ED. However if we're certain we're not going to tread on their toes (please don't kill/sue us Mr Braben!) then I think this might be the way to go.

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Diziet Sma »

Cody wrote:
Wildeblood wrote:... that comment is just stupid.
That comment is just rude!
Wildeblood's tact-gland was surgically removed many years ago.. :wink:
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by Pleb »

Diziet Sma wrote:Wildeblood's tact-gland was surgically removed many years ago.. :wink:
:lol:

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by cim »

Wildeblood wrote:Since I've already demonstrated that it's possible to add an unlimited number of alternative displays
Certainly you've demonstrated that it's possible for an OXP to cooperate with itself for that space (or cooperate with another OXP that provides an API).

I'll think about the rest, but the new market screen is already a bit more than the Oolite GUI code is really set up for.
Disembodied wrote:might it make more sense to move all illegal goods off the F8 screen and on to a separate "Black Market" screen
Possibly, but there are so many areas in which the illegal goods rules don't make sense - or rather, do make sense but imply a very evil Cooperative - that I think fixing that is a separate topic and possibly an OXP's job.

For now I think it makes sense to view the F8 screen as a summary of the best deals you've been able to find for each good, rather than something provided by a central station trading authority.

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Re: Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

Post by spara »

Looking good. I see no problem in handling multiple OXPs with a container OXP. Market screen enhancing OXPs register themselves to it and then F8 can be used to change the view. Basically what Wildeblood has already done.

How about that idea of using the dial section for information presented earlier? That space could show the contents of the "commodity information" when cycling through commodities. A new hud selector perhaps?

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